Verdict: The Great Metamagic Experiment is a failure.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I didn't comment in the other 'fixing metamagic' thread to avoid threadpooping, but, one of the left-behinds in the 3E -> 4E D&D conversion is the idea of metamagic. And we can pretty much say that the base idea behind it is probably a big pile of fail. I mean, let's go down the list of the core metamagics:

Heighten Spell: It's pretty obvious that this shouldn't have existed at all even before the experiment was run.

Empower, Maximize Spell: As 4E has showed us, slapping bigger numbers on a lower-level effect does not make the spell exciting. It's also a double-failure in the context of 3E D&D because in that edition higher level spells scaled in special effects AND effectiveness. Empower Fireball, even if you fix the DC issue, is pretty much totally inferior to Delay Blast Fireball in the long run. It's only superior at cases we actually want to avoid (e.g. level 12 characters will do more damage with E.Fireball than DBF), so, what's the point?

Still, Silent Spell: Should not have been metamagic. Should have been feats, at best. But as 4E D&D showed us no one even really misses the idea of being able to stop people from using powers by (even more) mundane obstacles.

Enlarge Spell/Widen Spell/Sculpt Spell: These categories are a pretty odd one. The base idea I can actually get behind, but I actually preferred the 4E version of Enlarge Spell where it was a damage tradeoff rather than an attempt to boost up a shitty lower-level power. Because then it runs into the problem of Empower/Maximize Spell.

Quicken Spell/Twin Spell/Repeat Spell: It's a theoretically balanced and useful effect but it runs into a couple of problems as implemented in D&D:

[*] People aren't exactly comfortable with the idea of non-uniform action gain and I don't blame them. D&D has never been able to get it right. I'm not against people getting extra attacks but it needs to come at a predictable schedule and/or be a reward for temporary tactical outmaneuvering--not something you can asymmetrically slap onto someone.

[*] In 3E D&D, Quickened Spell especially, it reinforced the 15-minute workday. In 4E D&D it led to Five Moves of Doom at medium levels and 'blow through your powers in one round, spam At-Wills until Baby Jesus cries' at low levels. Personally I can't think of any resource management systems proposed on these boards where it would be balanced.

[*] It leads to the cleric archer problem. Of course that needs its own separate fix altogether so let's just ignore that.

Extend Spell/Persistent Spell: This could be theoretically balanced but in my opinion no one really likes diddling with the time-management schemes in which this metamagic feat excels at. People pretty much like their buffs and penalties to be of the durations 'until end of combat', 'one turn', 'all day', and 'permanent' and except for 'one turn' Extend Spell doesn't really open up any balanced tactical possibilities. It has a place in Shadowrun or WoD, but not in D&D.

Elemental Admixture/Holy Spell/Etc.: The people who should be using this ability should be getting it for free and the people who shouldn't be getting it for free shouldn't be getting it at all. The latter just leads to Thunder/Radiant/Fire/Frost elemental keyword whoring like in 4E D&D.


So... seriously, what's left? The only metamagic feat I can think of which added anything to the game was that one in the PHB2 which let you spring spell traps onto foes and it's still (manageably) problematic. But still, is there any reason why we can't just lay the Great Metamagic Experiment to rest?

[Winnah]

Legacy. Metamagic is from 2e, though it was basically cast a spell to buff your next spell.

I could get behind a concept where a character could tinker with effects, duration and AoE, though such a system is likely to be fairly cumbersome.

Even a magical equivelant of something like Power Attack could be a fair substitution for Empower Spell. Trading out other CL modifiers such as casting time and/or range for extra damage.

I think it would work best on a stripped back magic system though, where you can tinker with an effect like Fire to increase area (fireball), range (fire arrow) or duration (fire wall/incendiary cloud) to varying degrees. Such a system would be far more flexible the Vancian system employed by previous editions, but may run too close to the 3.x psionics system for some peoples tastes.

I think I should read that other thread before i get into this further.

[Juton]

I'm not sure what your argument is. Metamagic is bad, but metamagic feats are usually much more useful than regular feats. Wouldn't it be more logical to say that feats in general are bad? Since pretty much no non-metamagic feat can live up to a metamagic one (craft feats and a few other excepted).

[rasmuswagner]

Heighten spell is the worst. It doesn't do anything useful, but it's a cornerstone in soo many stupid exploits.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm not sure what your argument is. Metamagic is bad, but metamagic feats are usually much more useful than regular feats. Wouldn't it be more logical to say that feats in general are bad? Since pretty much no non-metamagic feat can live up to a metamagic one (craft feats and a few other excepted).

The point is that unlike Power Attack or Elusive Target or Leadership or whatever, what metamagic ability would you actually want to use in a new edition? The 'good' portions of metamagic by and large were either exploits or relied on schtupping a base mechanic that you wouldn't even want in future editions anyway like Extend Spell making 10 min/level spells good.

[Juton]

I think there are probably a few metamagics that would enhance a game, but not necessarily using 3.5's implementation. Off the top of my head:

• Split Ray - Or similar effect, instead of attacking one target you can attack two. I think that would be fine so long as you can't direct both rays to the same target. Perhaps you can even allow it for AoE spells on the provision that the areas don't overlap.
  Selective - Basically your fireball doesn't hurt your friends.
  Persistent - Persistent Spell is in an odd spot, it usually isn't worth using without an exploit, and then it's too strong. Our group houseruled it into a +2 level increase that boosts the duration up one step, say from one round to one combat, or to an hour.
  Quicken - Very hard to balance but it's still cool.
  Invisible - People can't see the affects of the spell, which can be hilarious or deadly depending on how big a dick your MC is.

In 3.5 most metamagic is either too expensive in level increase or not worth the feat cost. You can solve the first problem by just fixing the level increases or introducing another mechanic like limited uses per day. The second problem can be fixed by combining some feats, like rolling empower and maximize into one feat. IIRC Tome does both of these fixes, I think metamagic would work even better in a tome game because of this.

[TheFlatline]

Heighten spell is the worst. It doesn't do anything useful, but it's a cornerstone in soo many stupid exploits.

We always ruled that casters got heighten for free at level 1. Not that you could use it at level 1, but it just seems to be a class ability to spend a higher spell slot on a lower level spell and getting the DC of the higher spell slot.

We *rarely* used it. In fact, metamagic is rarely used period. A maximized fireball does 60/30 fire damage for the equivalent of a 7th level spell IIRC (+4 spell levels right?).

In fact, the only time we *did* see metamagic was in scrolls. Which from a scrolls-cost-xp-to-make is still fucking stupid, but the DM gave out metamagic scrolls as treasure occasionally.

I kind of dug how Wheel of Time did spells. Each spell was kind of utilitarian. It had a base level (fireball was level 3), but it *only* did 5d6 or whatever the base damage was. If you wanted damage to increase, you spent a higher spell slot. So a 5th level fireball was full damage of 8D6 or something like that. Then again, your average spell caster shit weaves compared to D&D (and with a high enough concentration could keep casting once out of spell slots), so it wasn't that expensive to bump spells up.

[hogarth]

We *rarely* used it. In fact, metamagic is rarely used period.

Do you ever play spontaneous casters? Those are the ones that get some use out of metamagic, in my experience (since they can't waste precious spells known on spells like "Slightly Better Fireball").

My two cents:
[*]DCs should be based on the slot used. That means that Heighten Spell goes away (just cast the same spell using a higher slot).
[*]Crappy little metamagics should be bundled together, a la Arcana Evolved's Modify Spell feat.
[*]All classes should be able to use metamagic on the fly (again, a la Arcana Evolved).
[*]Classes and feats that dick around with metamagic costs (e.g. Divine Metamagic, Incantatrix) should go away.

[Josh_Kablack]

Lago, I agree with you in the particulars about why most 3e core metamagic managed to be useless and or exploitable - often at the same time.

But talking in the very abstract, I think metamagic has a place - just not in any Vancian casting system. Some of 4e's issues with at-will spamming could be mitigated if characters had a couple vaguely metamagic-like options to choose from each time they used their at-will powers. Likewise some of the objections to CMwYCPHtC power systems could be mitigated by giving characters the ability to purchase 2 or 3 riders or tweaks that they can add whatever they roll on their matrix.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Some of 4e's issues with at-will spamming could be mitigated if characters had a couple vaguely metamagic-like options to choose from each time they used their at-will powers.

I don't really think so. The 4E Warlock/Ranger/Wizard have shown us that people just push all of their 'metamagic'-like effects (Hobbling Strike, actual Enlarge Spell, Teleport, Radiant Weapons, etc.) onto one power at once and just have it converge for maximum cheese.

Making them inherent to the powers doesn't particularly help either. See: Runepriest.


But all of this is just pushing around numbers. The question I have for the boards is: Why? Why have a game effect that does what metamagic is supposed to do? Why not just have different powers altogether such that you can free yourselves from the shackles of metamagic.

Energy Substitution is bad for the game if you're not trying to cut down on space. For example, with Fireball there's no need to make Acidball or Iceball or Lightningball or whatever. But the flipside of that is that if those were discrete powers you could have jazzed them up by making Acidball sticky or Iceball slow people or Forceball push them or whatever. Energy Substitution just makes all of the other energy balls have the same base effects as fireball.

Similar arguments can be made for all of the other metamagic effects that aren't necessarily broken. Such as Enlarge spell. I mean you could have a Regular Cone of Cold and an Enlarged Cone of Cold whose tradeoff is that it did less damage and lasted for a shorter period of time... or you could have a Regular Cone of Cold and a Destrauchan Scream where the latter had more different effects aside from a change in damage and area.

[hogarth]

But all of this is just pushing around numbers. The question I have for the boards is: Why? Why have a game effect that does what metamagic is supposed to do? Why not just have different powers altogether such that you can free yourselves from the shackles of metamagic.

I don't think there's anything essentially wrong with that idea although, as changes go, I think you'd have to bundle it together with eliminating or rewriting classes like the sorcerer or the favoured soul which have a small number of known spells.

[Josh_Kablack]

The question I have for the boards is: Why? Why have a game effect that does what metamagic is supposed to do? Why not just have different powers altogether such that you can free yourselves from the shackles of metamagic.

As you just said yourself, to save on space.

It makes for easier and shorter writing to write

10d6 EB, Radius AoE, pick one flavor from [Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Sonic or Bullshit]

than it does to write out something like

10d6 Acidball, targets take continuing damage until neutralized
10d6 Coldball, slows things down
10d6 Electricball, ignores bonuses from metal armor
10d6 Fireball, also sets crap on fire for a mix of continuing damage and property destruction
10d6 Sonic Ball, deafens, also great vs inanimate objects and crystal enemies
10d6 Bullshit Ball, nobody has energy resistance against this easter-egg damage type.

It also makes for easier conceptualization and comparison by readers to see things as [Attack Power] for [Damage] of [Type] than to have to remember the hundreds of different spells/powers in any D&D edition. The comparisons become non-obvious when they list of "____ball" spells aren't grouped as neatly as above, and instead "Acidball' and "Fireball" have 35 pages of triple-column text describing other spells between them (like they would if Acidball was in the 3.5 PHB)

I mean didn't 4e teach us that having 36 different lvl 3 encounter powers which all did 2W+stat + Useless Rider with 36 different fucking names made for a system where nobody could explain to the new player what exactly their powers actually did ?


Of course you're right in that writing "procedure to generate new attack power" doesn't get to be shorter and easier to remember than "lengthy list of attack powers" for free. The lengthy list of powers is generally more fun to read and generally includes more plot hooks and wiggle room to write new powers in splatbooks.

[Previn]

Psionics ho?

[hogarth]

I just remembered -- Arcana Evolved had another interesting metamagic-ish aspect. Many spells have a "heightened" and "diminished" version if you use a spell slot one level higher or lower. So they're sort of three-in-one spells.

As noted by Previn, psionics works in a similar way with "augmented" powers. And Pathfinder's Words of Power system also allows you to "boost" the range or effect or targets in a similar way.

[Whatever]

We *rarely* used it. In fact, metamagic is rarely used period.

Do you ever play spontaneous casters? Those are the ones that get some use out of metamagic, in my experience (since they can't waste precious spells known on spells like "Slightly Better Fireball").

Yeah, Heighten Spell is great for a low-mid level Sorcerer, since you get only 1 new spell every time you hit a new spell level. Having Heighten means that you can still cast a useful Web at level 8, even though you took Confusion instead of Black Tentacles for your one 4th level spell. Sculpt Spell can also be useful, depending on your spell list. Garbage like Maximize Spell is still garbage, though.

Conversely, Heighten is basically useless on a Beguiler, since your spell list is full of strict upgrades, and you get access to the whole list spontaneously.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I mean didn't 4e teach us that having 36 different lvl 3 encounter powers which all did 2W+stat + Useless Rider with 36 different fucking names made for a system where nobody could explain to the new player what exactly their powers actually did ?

Well, that's my point. There shouldn't be Fire/Acid/Ice/Sonic/etc. ball. It should be Fire Ball / Lightning Bolt (with original crazy bouncing physics) / Acid Trap Hole / Freezing Fog.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

Why? Why have a game effect that does what metamagic is supposed to do? Why not just have different powers altogether

Because having selectable abilities that modify and interact with other selectable abilities is really popular with players.

Because it lets them customize and describe their character and actions in ways they like.

The implementation of Meta Magic was terrible. But at it's core "the game effect it was supposed to do" was basically just "like feats but for magic users". And that is totally cool and no, sorry Lago you AREN'T qualified to call a verdict on that, primarily because you don't even seem to have noticed that that is what meta magic was supposed to be.

But you know, don't let us stop you from wringing your hands over another non crisis and using it as a laughably inadvertent excuse to dismiss player controlled character customization/actions even further.

[Psychic Robot]

paizo released one decent metamagic feat, it uncaps spell damage up to +5 dice (so a fireball can do 15d6 damage). obviously not great but okay if you're going to nuke, combine it with empower for decent effects

[Ice9]

I think the idea of metamagic could be good. I think the the implementation of using higher-level spell slots doesn't work, and it never really could work.

To be balanced, metamagic should be a trade-off that you decide on at the moment of casting, like Power Attack. If you have to make it ahead of time then it will either be worse than a normal spell (and used never) or better (and broken). So yeah, 4E Enlarge Spell was actually kind of the right idea.

In some ways, an AU / XPH system where each spell has an individual way to augment or decrease it gives the best results, as it ensures the tradeoff will be meaningful and worthwhile for that spell. OTOH, it loses out on any combination power to get more bang for your wordage.

[TheFlatline]

We *rarely* used it. In fact, metamagic is rarely used period.

Do you ever play spontaneous casters? Those are the ones that get some use out of metamagic, in my experience (since they can't waste precious spells known on spells like "Slightly Better Fireball").

Yup. There was some problem or another back in 3.0 days that made shit like Maximize not usable by sorcerers. Something to do with any metamagic that extended casting time just flat couldn't be used, because sorcerers already had lengthened casting times.

[Hicks]

That was because Skip Williams did not understand the English language, the relevant post is here.

[Psychic Robot]

fuck skip williams

[Hicks]

May he be darned to heck, where he shall be mildly inconvenienced until he chooses to leave.

[Josh_Kablack]

That was because Skip Williams did not understand the English language, the relevant post is here.

Damn. Looks like I still owe at least two of yinz beers.

[Username17]

People want abilities that can be defined narratively that they can use in different situations. The old AD&D spells that were defined incredibly vaguely were actually much closer to what people want than the 4e ones. That is: it is better to be told that their fire power "makes fire" and have no rules at all than it is to be told an exact amount of fire damage that they can do to enemies in five contiguous squares but not be able to burn inanimate objects at all.

Honestly, if you're going to go Vancian, people probably want magic to come out like Spheres. Getting (or preparing) Fire Magic at your level lets you shoot little bullshit fire bolts all day and call down a giant explosion once a day and make walls of persistent fire twice a day. That sort of thing.

The actual Metamagic was a failure primarily because the things it tinkered with were in almost all cases shit people did not care about. About the only one that is really thematic is the one that lets you shoot a touch spell as a ray. And that one actually sucks, even though it's the sort of thing people actually want to do.

-Username17