Are Tabletop RPGs becoming more liberal?

[Josh_Kablack]

Ron Paul is a weird guy to bring up. Most Republicans treat him as a crazy guy or a bad joke at best. He is hardly an example of the typical far Right.

You're right in that "most" treat him that way.

But he got 2 million popular votes (about 10%) and is projected to finish with 166 delegates in the current Republican presidential primary - which means that he's roughly tied with Newt Gingrich for 3rd place behind Romney and Santorum. More telling, at times this year, he has polled higher than the incumbent

So while his supporters are clearly a minority, he's actually a pretty good example of somebody who has a statistically significant amount of support within the Republican party and the American electorate in general.

[Duke Flauros]

I suspect that things are stacked a bit against stereotypical hawkish conservative factions simply by virtue that it's easier for a lazy writer to set up the the guys who are more willing to resort to violence as outright villains than it is the liberal hippie dippie types. Well, unless you're Terry Goodkind and don't see anything weird about having your protagonist hack his way through a crowd of pacifists for great justice.

Well, hippies usually don't try to conquer the world. Right-wing (and left-wing) war hawks often do.

[Libertad]

@Voss:

My main concern is that comparison to fascists and Nazis happens all the time in political discourse, and it's mostly used by people who have no idea what they're talking about. The reason that the Jovian write-up in EP struck me as bad was because the nation's use of iconography in their settlements hewed closely to American Neoconservatism instead of the Axis powers (or Franco's supporters, or some other real-world fascist group).

@Whipstitch:

I think another reason for using right-wingers as bad guys in fiction is that "liberal" villains are most prominent in right-wing author tract, and as such tend to have a case of Writer on Board.

A good example is Orson Scott Card's Empire series.

Back to RPGs, my views on the thread subject have changed. It appears that political messages are for the most part absent in games aside from a few exceptions, and that it's not indicative of a paradigm shift in the industry.

[K]

2. Many American Right-wing ideologies are older than fascism. Also, fascism is totalitarian, but it's a specific kind of totalitarianism with things that set it apart. from other forms of nationalism. It views the Nation-State as the end-all be-all of national unity, that only a select few should lead society instead of letting the majority have a say in national policy. It believes that universal, worldwide peace (or any kind of utopia) is impossible, and that conflict is inherent to human nature. It is highly collectivist, emphasizing that individualism is a negative. The US GOP, despite its nationalist and militaristic leanings, is too free-market friendly and too individualistic in economic affairs to actually be fascist.

I hate to break it to you, but American Right Wing is not individualistic. Just look at the record of Republican votes and you'll see that they never break ranks. (Libertarians might talk a good game about individualism, but as a fringe group will few representative, it's impossible to know how they'd actually act with any real power.)

The Right also demonize any member that breaks ranks on any idea or dares to vote against the party. That's not a respect for individualism in any way, and the evidence is only a few links away if you actually care.

As for being "free market", there is no major American political movement that is not free market. The Democrats are just as free market as the Republicans, it's just that the Republicans and Libertarians promote wealth inequality in the name of Austrian and Chicago school voodoo economics that say that giving all the money to the rich will somehow promote the free market (Protip: It won't and they don't have any evidence that it will.).

The American Right are not Hitler-style fascists, but they do use a number of fascist tactics. They destroy anyone who breaks with their message, are strongly nationalistic, militaristic and pro-militia, and focused on concentrating wealth and power at the top, strongly against personal rights that aren't related to gun-ownership, and they operate on a philosophy of fear that focuses public attention on an imaginary outside enemy from the majority (immigrants, gays, Muslims, blacks... whatever). The fact that they are strongly anti-intellectual is also straight out of the fascist playbook.

I could also link you to Republicans and other ring wingers mocking the Left for being utopians.

So yes, American-style fascism has it's own flavor because it talks about freedom and individualism while restricting rights, disempowering the individual, and enforcing conformity and group-think. They also haven't tried to take over the government yet, merely settling for paralyzing all government functions to date.

[infected slut princess]

As for being "free market", there is no major American political movement that is not free market. The Democrats are just as free market as the Republicans, it's just that the Republicans and Libertarians promote wealth inequality in the name of Austrian and Chicago school voodoo economics that say that giving all the money to the rich will somehow promote the free market (Protip: It won't and they don't have any evidence that it will.).

Interesting. But it is not "free market" policy to "give" money to anyone, in the sense of forcibly redistributing wealth from one group to another.

To say otherwise is to imply that the bank bailouts (taking money from middle and lower class people and giving it to rich people) during the 2008 financial crisis was a "free market" policy because it involved "giving all the money to the rich", when that is clearly ignorant.

I do not think you understand what a free market is. If you think Republicans seriously support free markets instead of just saying they do, you are dumb. The level of intervention they support is fucking huge, even if you just consider the massive MILITARY into which they want to divert wealth and resources. Just like Democrats. Even most "libertarians", when you peel away their phony rhetoric, support any forms of market intervention.

[Libertad]

I hate to break it to you, but American Right Wing is not individualistic. Just look at the record of Republican votes and you'll see that they never break ranks. (Libertarians might talk a good game about individualism, but as a fringe group will few representative, it's impossible to know how they'd actually act with any real power.)

I didn't mean to imply that Republicans are individualist. I spoke poorly.

I meant to say Republicans are individualist only in regards to economic affairs; they think that people should support themselves on their own two feet when it comes to many forms of government aid. The fact that this empowers corporations is not seen as a bad thing, as the GOP views this as a case of "the free market working." On national security and religion, the GOP is collectivist and very big government.

Despite this, they often claim to be "small government" and all about "individual freedom." Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism emphasized the use of the State to direct the nation's populace. Republican and Fascist worldviews differ. The GOP loves Ayn Rand, but Mussolini would probably see her as everything wrong with individualism. The GOP would deregulate big business, but fascists will try to control private enterprise. The GOP is less about a big, overarching State and would rather have 50 mostly-independent States (except for the military, which they want to be big). There is a pervasive fear about a huge federal government controlling all aspects of society in the US, despite W expanding the federal government by a lot during his term (the Republicans distanced themselves from these policies post-2008). Fascists have no such fear, and view a huge government directing the populace to improve the nation as a dream come true instead of an Orwellian nightmare.

I do think that the GOP has a problem in propagating hate, in that they do promote fear and division against certain groups as you mentioned. When that North Carolina pastor advocated rounding up LGBT people in camps, or when Pamella Geller defended Milosevic, it really doesn't help their side when it comes to "loving freedom."

My main point is that t it's not good for people to conflate GOP and fascist ideology as being one and the same. Sorry if I'm just going around in circles.

[infected slut princess]

My main point is that t it's not good for people to conflate GOP and fascists as being one and the same. Sorry if I'm just going around in circles.

There is no conflating, dude. The GOP just is fascist. And you know what? The Democrat fappers around here might not like to hear it, but the Dems are fascists also. They are just fascists with some subtle variations and different rhetoric.

[Stubbazubba]

If you're just going to define a school of political thought by what it's corrupt leaders do and not by what street-level conservatives actually say they believe, well, that knife cuts both ways, don't it? Is it any surprise that the political party attached to any given political philosophy espouses practices that contradict elements of that philosophy? Trying to accuse the right of being the only ones this way smacks of a narrow view of reality which is informed by someone else, and that's not an accomplishment. Political parties in general act in a fascist manner, and who would expect anything else? When control of the United States is at stake, and only group action can secure it, then of course there emerges a lowest common denominator of behavior and ethics which no constituent fully endorses or agrees with.

[Ted the Flayer]

Back in the day, you killed orc because orcs were bad. These days, orcs are portrayed as growing up in a toxic environment where only about half of them turn out bad.

I would definitely say that indicates a more left-leaning viewpoint.

[Chamomile]

Wikipedia is not a White Wolf supplement. It doesn't matter what they or actual Christians or anyone else say that "Faith" or "Hope" or whatever means, because White Wolf provided their own definitions in their own book, and they are different definitions which appear to have been specifically engineered to be far more universal. Yes, White Wolf probably should've realized at the point where they were dramatically reinventing the definition of half their virtues/vices that this was a bad motif to hitch their wagon to, but when Frank says that nWoD is offensive because they impose Christian morality on its players he's wrong because it doesn't. It just uses the same words, the exact same way that I'm not Catholic just because I like quoting Dies Irae in the original latin, and a fantasy world that has a good religion with awesome hats and robes is not automatically Catholic propaganda.

[Prak]

Point the first- I have yet to see a religion with awesome hats, only funny ones.

Point the second- So, if someone made a typical fantasy world, and called their xp-bag orc-expy race "Niggas", and the forest dwelling race "Chinks" that wouldn't be racist because it's inventing new meanings for the words?

[Chamomile]

It's safe to assume they're racist because there's no other reason but racism to use the words. Unless it's South Park "nothing is sacred" style humor, in which case whether or not that still counts as racism is mostly semantics. Catholic images and symbolism have a far reaching cultural impact that goes way beyond their actual religious teachings, and there is thus utility in using things like the seven deadly sins even if you have absolutely no intention to actually spread any kind of Christian morality.

Again, Overlord is not Catholic propaganda even though every single one of its villains is modeled after one of the seven deadly sins. It's just a motif, because the seven deadly sins have cultural weight. If you have a fictional religion that looks like this and is generally okay with homosexuality and extra-marital sex, you have not created Catholic propaganda. Bugger, if you have creatures explicitly called angels which are 100% good all the time and creatures explicitly called demons and devils which are 100% evil all the time, you are not making Christian propaganda, you are making D&D.

[Duke Flauros]

Catholic images and symbolism have a far reaching cultural impact that goes way beyond their actual religious teachings, and there is thus utility in using things like the seven deadly sins even if you have absolutely no intention to actually spread any kind of Christian morality.

1) That line of reasoning can be used to excuse anything.

2) NWOD, however, doesn't just use christian motifs- it explicitly treats Christian (and more specifically Catholic) values as the morally correct choice. Anyone with an alternate system of values is treated as amoral, immoral, or simply wrong.

[Libertad]

Catholic images and symbolism have a far reaching cultural impact that goes way beyond their actual religious teachings, and there is thus utility in using things like the seven deadly sins even if you have absolutely no intention to actually spread any kind of Christian morality.

1) That line of reasoning can be used to excuse anything.

2) NWOD, however, doesn't just use christian motifs- it explicitly treats Christian (and more specifically Catholic) values as the morally correct choice. Anyone with an alternate system of values is treated as amoral, immoral, or simply wrong.

Once again, I think that WW chose the Virtue/Vice thing not out of some religious conversion attempt so much as they figured that most Western gamers would understand it. I wouldn't go so far as to say that their products portray non-Christians as immoral and evil so much as the people who steal, kill, etc on a regular basis are portrayed as evil (you can fulfill your Vice without losing Morality, but that's going down another road with NWoD "alignment").

It doesn't necessarily fit well, though, especially when the Abrahamic God may or may not exist in a lot of the settings.

I do agree with Chamomile that a lot of RPGs use Christian symbolism and imagery, and to some extent may base the "godly good" groups vaguely off of the religion (the 7 Heavens of Celestia in D&D's a Biblical reference). I think that a lot of writers and game designers go for the symbolism without fully endorsing a religious doctrine.

[Chamomile]

1) No, it can't. It excuses the use of any and all symbols, languages, metaphors, and other ultimately content-free trappings of a religion, because, again, I am not Catholic just because I like quoting Dies Irae. What it does not excuse is the actual use of Catholic morality, and...

2) nWoD does not support Catholic morality at all. They have radically redefined so many of the virtues and vices that what comes out at the end is something where you can totally have an atheist character with Faith as his virtue and not only do the mechanics support you, but their definition of Faith very explicitly allows this. The virtues presented by nWoD are different from the virtues given by the actual Catholic church.

[Prak]

It's safe to assume they're racist because there's no other reason but racism to use the words. Unless it's South Park "nothing is sacred" style humor, in which case whether or not that still counts as racism is mostly semantics. Catholic images and symbolism have a far reaching cultural impact that goes way beyond their actual religious teachings, and there is thus utility in using things like the seven deadly sins even if you have absolutely no intention to actually spread any kind of Christian morality.

So replace orc-expys with kobolds and call them nigards. Totally innocent word, used because they're cheapskates and misers, but there is absolutely very little reason to use that specific word.

Again, Overlord is not Catholic propaganda even though every single one of its villains is modeled after one of the seven deadly sins. It's just a motif, because the seven deadly sins have cultural weight. If you have a fictional religion that looks like this and is generally okay with homosexuality and extra-marital sex, you have not created Catholic propaganda. Bugger, if you have creatures explicitly called angels which are 100% good all the time and creatures explicitly called demons and devils which are 100% evil all the time, you are not making Christian propaganda, you are making D&D.

Nor is the game that posits Jesus Christ being the literal son of god catholic propaganda. But the game which says "Everyone exemplifies one of the cardinal or theological virtues and one of the deadly sins, and they absolutely must be treated that way," while not propaganda, is fucking dumb. Even just saying "Pick two of these fourteen things, one is a virtue, which gets you a full WP refresh when you do it, because you feel good spiritually, one is a vice which gets you a WP point when you do it, because you feel good physically/emotionally but guilty spiritually" would be better. And yes, you'd get gorehound werewolves with Wrath as a virtue and Patience as a vice, and depraved vampires with Gluttony as a virtue and Charity as a vice, but that actually fucking makes some sense.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I do agree with Chamomile that a lot of RPGs use Christian symbolism and imagery, and to some extent may base the "godly good" groups vaguely off of the religion (the 7 Heavens of Celestia in D&D's a Biblical reference). I think that a lot of writers and game designers go for the symbolism without fully endorsing a religious doctrine.

The difference being, D&D is a kitchen sink with Hades, Yggdrasil, and Nirvana. NWoD is just Christianity.

[K]

I do not think you understand what a free market is.

It sounds like you don't know what a free market is and somehow have it confused with laissez-faire economics. Here is a link to Wikipedia.

Your welcome.

[K]

Again, Overlord is not Catholic propaganda even though every single one of its villains is modeled after one of the seven deadly sins. It's just a motif, because the seven deadly sins have cultural weight. If you have a fictional religion that looks like this and is generally okay with homosexuality and extra-marital sex, you have not created Catholic propaganda. Bugger, if you have creatures explicitly called angels which are 100% good all the time and creatures explicitly called demons and devils which are 100% evil all the time, you are not making Christian propaganda, you are making D&D.

Nor is the game that posits Jesus Christ being the literal son of god catholic propaganda. But the game which says "Everyone exemplifies one of the cardinal or theological virtues and one of the deadly sins, and they absolutely must be treated that way," while not propaganda, is fucking dumb. Even just saying "Pick two of these fourteen things, one is a virtue, which gets you a full WP refresh when you do it, because you feel good spiritually, one is a vice which gets you a WP point when you do it, because you feel good physically/emotionally but guilty spiritually" would be better. And yes, you'd get gorehound werewolves with Wrath as a virtue and Patience as a vice, and depraved vampires with Gluttony as a virtue and Charity as a vice, but that actually fucking makes some sense.

The Seven Deadly Sins have cultural weight because of Catholicism.

Thus, by forcing everyone's morality into that framework, you are forcing them into the Catholic framework. Otherwise, there is no reason to do it because it wouldn't have cultural weight.

I mean, you can try to pretend that Intelligent Design is not Creationism, but no one is fooled. By the same token, WW's attempt to modernize the Seven Deadly Sins and Virtues is a pathetically transparent ruse.

[kzt]

Just because an ideology or party shares something in common with fascists doesn't make them fascists, nor does it mean that they're taking direct inspiration from them.

You mean all vegetarians really don't have a strong need to murder all the Jews just like the vegetarian Hitler did? And that the Green Party isn't just like the nature loving Nazis in all respects?

[Libertad]

Just because an ideology or party shares something in common with fascists doesn't make them fascists, nor does it mean that they're taking direct inspiration from them.

You mean all vegetarians really don't have a strong need to murder all the Jews just like the vegetarian Hitler did? And that the Green Party isn't just like the nature loving Nazis in all respects?

Idiots have seriously used this aspect of Hitler's diet to Godwin's Law against environmentalism.

[Libertad]

I do agree with Chamomile that a lot of RPGs use Christian symbolism and imagery, and to some extent may base the "godly good" groups vaguely off of the religion (the 7 Heavens of Celestia in D&D's a Biblical reference). I think that a lot of writers and game designers go for the symbolism without fully endorsing a religious doctrine.

The difference being, D&D is a kitchen sink with Hades, Yggdrasil, and Nirvana. NWoD is just Christianity.

What about the Circle of the Crone, the "pagan" vampires? Or the various Astral versions of reality in Mage: The Awakening?

Christian mythos was a very prominent aspect in Old Vampire, but aside from the Virtue/Vice system it's not as prominent. The origin of vampires is still up for debate.

[K]

Just because an ideology or party shares something in common with fascists doesn't make them fascists, nor does it mean that they're taking direct inspiration from them.

You mean all vegetarians really don't have a strong need to murder all the Jews just like the vegetarian Hitler did? And that the Green Party isn't just like the nature loving Nazis in all respects?

Here's a question: if I gave you a milkshake, what percentage of human shit would you accept in the drink as ok? 50%? 10%? 5%, even if the rest is pure creamy milk-chocolate goodness?

The Republican Party shares about 50-60% of it's tactics and ideas with fascists, and I'd argue that it's too much.

[Koumei]

Also interestingly enough, if you ask the Republicans, they're okay with that milkshake having about 60% human shit (in that they'd be happy to do away with the FDA and just deregulate these things so your milkshake producers can do as they please).

Also, Hitler was not a vegetarian. He loved eating meat, and in fact his doctor recommended he cut down on the stuff do deal with his chronic flatulence, but he ignored his doctor's advice. No word on whether the doctor also said not to kill millions of Jews.

Now he was against fox hunting and many other forms of animal cruelty, and liked animals, but he also liked eating them.

[Sarandosil]

Please tell me what culture explicitly rejects, even partially, Charity, Faith, Fortitude, Hope, Justice, Prudence or Temperance?

• Charity Capitalists
• Faith Atheists
• Hope Satanists
• Justice Criminals
• Prudence Christians ("the ability to govern and discipline oneself by the use of reason" is the Wiki definition of it as a virtue)
• Temperance again, Satanists, depending on how strictly you define Temperance.

Tell me, what list of virtues and vices would you have for Islamic characters, for example? I'm generally curious.

Righteousness, Generosity, Gratitude, Contentment, Humility, Kindness, Courtesy, Purity, Good Speech, Respect, Wisdom, Justice, Mercy, Dignity, Courage, Firmness, Frankness, Hope, Patience, Perseverance, Discipline, Self Restraint, Moderation, "Prudence" (though they seem to use the word to mean "put agreements in writing" and "don't act without knowing the truth"), Unity, Frugality, Sincerity, Responsibility, Loyalty, Trustworthiness, Honesty, Repentance and Spirituality.
Wow, they really need either a poet or a PR person to get that down to a manageable list.

I see you left tolerance off that list

I'd pare it down to justice, humility, asceticism, faith, moderation and charity. Edit: Unity too. That bit is rather important.