I had thought I could use azrael + veterans as a tough screen for the heavy bolters, and take objectives with the bikes. The tac squad is basically filler, but fairly tough. That does kind of rely on heavy bolters being as awsome as I think they are though.
With Sameal, which incarnation should I take? I have no idea how good he is on a bike. The speeder seems nice, but bland.
Warhammer: how to not suck
Moderator: Moderators
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Can I fire into a melee of two different enemy forces?
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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squirrelloid
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JE: yes, their Codex is mostly the same as it was in 5E. I mean, it's the same book, just with some updates like "Now 'Is a Vendetta' is an upgrade you purchase for Valkyries, also they're Flyers with Hover Mode" and "This rule now actually does X" or "These tanks have this many Hull Points". You can indeed put him in a conscript blob.
Also you should tjeck out the d6Ed codex for Chaos Meringues. Cultists are back: cheap, 10-?? (I can't remember if it was 20, 30 or 50), shitty at most things, but you can mark them and thus make them 6++ (sorry, I meant 3++ because you made sure they're getting a 4++ from some other effect like sitting on a Landing Pad with Shields Up) or increasing their I or T by 1 or giving them Rage + Counter Attack (see: +1 A in the first round of combat). And yeah, you can plonk your HQ into them and go wild.
You will not like the pricing on a lot of things, the stupid "random gift" table, several of the special characters, Tzeench (who yet again gets the worst psykic powers, hahaha), the daemon-possessed units and so on. Just wait until you grab the daemondex! RANDOM TABLES, YOU SAY? I'LL GIVE YOU RANDOM TABLES!
Errata helps Chaos Meringues a bit. Your Fast Attack choice will be 3x1 Helldrake, preferably with the AP 3 Torrent Flamer that can be fired from any direction on it. Your Elite will be... um... skipped, probably. Heavy will actually be full of juicy choices - the Dinozords are both acceptable, Preds are effective for their price, and squads of Havocs can be decent as long as you don't do anything silly like 4x missile launcher with flakk missiles. Troops? You have so many options, you'll be quite happy. Don't go overboard on making them super expensive. HQ also gives you things from "cheap, does one thing" to "expensive, is a monster in close combat and has an AP 3 Torrent flamer, also unlocks X as Troops".
I think you'll be happy with it, ignoring the "playing 40k" thing.
Also you should tjeck out the d6Ed codex for Chaos Meringues. Cultists are back: cheap, 10-?? (I can't remember if it was 20, 30 or 50), shitty at most things, but you can mark them and thus make them 6++ (sorry, I meant 3++ because you made sure they're getting a 4++ from some other effect like sitting on a Landing Pad with Shields Up) or increasing their I or T by 1 or giving them Rage + Counter Attack (see: +1 A in the first round of combat). And yeah, you can plonk your HQ into them and go wild.
You will not like the pricing on a lot of things, the stupid "random gift" table, several of the special characters, Tzeench (who yet again gets the worst psykic powers, hahaha), the daemon-possessed units and so on. Just wait until you grab the daemondex! RANDOM TABLES, YOU SAY? I'LL GIVE YOU RANDOM TABLES!
Errata helps Chaos Meringues a bit. Your Fast Attack choice will be 3x1 Helldrake, preferably with the AP 3 Torrent Flamer that can be fired from any direction on it. Your Elite will be... um... skipped, probably. Heavy will actually be full of juicy choices - the Dinozords are both acceptable, Preds are effective for their price, and squads of Havocs can be decent as long as you don't do anything silly like 4x missile launcher with flakk missiles. Troops? You have so many options, you'll be quite happy. Don't go overboard on making them super expensive. HQ also gives you things from "cheap, does one thing" to "expensive, is a monster in close combat and has an AP 3 Torrent flamer, also unlocks X as Troops".
I think you'll be happy with it, ignoring the "playing 40k" thing.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Yes, you can add them to a platoon, which by itself must have a platoon HQ of five guys and two squads of ten, and up to 3 more additional squads of ten. One Force Org slot of the IG can seriously field a hundred men if you also add in HW teams and SWS teams.Judging__Eagle wrote:Hmm.... do those units of conscripts that can reach 40 models still exist in IG?
There's also an IG Leader who can grant his Conscipt platoon a ridiculously expensive "Send in the next wave" rule, which basically allows you to rez your concscript squad as many times as you want.
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Judging__Eagle
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Koumei, you need to design a version of Zcience Phantasy GrimDerp wargaming that lives up to your standards, and we need to play it on Vassal.
Randumb tables I remember from the 3e Codex (i.e. Chaos Possesed: Insanely powerful with invulerable demons saves (4+) and Powerweapon claws; or ... bullshit).
The other stuff looks interesting too. I'm assuming Dinozords == Defilers/Pieplate-Crabs?
Fast attack with AP 3 flamers is a bad day for even marines; and then there' the beautiful fact that a vehicle is an awesome weapon in any of itself.
I remember once hearing that the 'best' way to deal with Necrons, as marines, is to mass Rhinos, run them as empty as possible, and stampede them in close formation over Necron squads to flatten them.
Fectin, regarding your points available, here's my advice:
Marines are, far and large, the 'best' troops people can field.
The best way to take advantage of that when you can't field a wide amount of units is to simply field lots of them.
You'll want to field enough basic marines that it will be agony for a less prepared force to actually bring to bear what few weapons it will have that can [reliably-edit] harm your T4 Sv3+ marines.
I'll admit that I do this with Chaos, as well; and even in larger games.
Being able to field closer to 40 marines in a 1500~ match who have some tools to deal with harder to crack targets is infinitely better than 20-ish marines and a couple of juicy targets that cant' take/hold the map.
I'm seriously advocating Dawn of War tactics for Marines (chaos or imperial) here. Getting large amounts of basic Marines will defeat smaller groups of more specialized troops; mostly b/c you can still field some amount of "anti-assault", and "anti-armour" in there.
If the option for "cheaper squads b/c they have only a flamer and missile launcher" still exists in the current SM codex, go for it, it's a pretty good one. Even if it seems boring, it's better to have twice as many special and heavy weapons of the 'lowest' tier (flamers, missile launcher) than to have half as many of the 'highest' tier (meltaguns, heavy bolter, autocannon, plasma cannon/lascannon).
Randumb tables I remember from the 3e Codex (i.e. Chaos Possesed: Insanely powerful with invulerable demons saves (4+) and Powerweapon claws; or ... bullshit).
The other stuff looks interesting too. I'm assuming Dinozords == Defilers/Pieplate-Crabs?
Fast attack with AP 3 flamers is a bad day for even marines; and then there' the beautiful fact that a vehicle is an awesome weapon in any of itself.
I remember once hearing that the 'best' way to deal with Necrons, as marines, is to mass Rhinos, run them as empty as possible, and stampede them in close formation over Necron squads to flatten them.
Fectin, regarding your points available, here's my advice:
Marines are, far and large, the 'best' troops people can field.
The best way to take advantage of that when you can't field a wide amount of units is to simply field lots of them.
You'll want to field enough basic marines that it will be agony for a less prepared force to actually bring to bear what few weapons it will have that can [reliably-edit] harm your T4 Sv3+ marines.
I'll admit that I do this with Chaos, as well; and even in larger games.
Being able to field closer to 40 marines in a 1500~ match who have some tools to deal with harder to crack targets is infinitely better than 20-ish marines and a couple of juicy targets that cant' take/hold the map.
I'm seriously advocating Dawn of War tactics for Marines (chaos or imperial) here. Getting large amounts of basic Marines will defeat smaller groups of more specialized troops; mostly b/c you can still field some amount of "anti-assault", and "anti-armour" in there.
If the option for "cheaper squads b/c they have only a flamer and missile launcher" still exists in the current SM codex, go for it, it's a pretty good one. Even if it seems boring, it's better to have twice as many special and heavy weapons of the 'lowest' tier (flamers, missile launcher) than to have half as many of the 'highest' tier (meltaguns, heavy bolter, autocannon, plasma cannon/lascannon).
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Wed May 22, 2013 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Next time I'm drunk, maybe.Judging__Eagle wrote:Koumei, you need to design a version of Zcience Phantasy GrimDerp wargaming that lives up to your standards, and we need to play it on Vassal.
Okay, so here's where the randum is:Randumb tables I remember from the 3e Codex (i.e. Chaos Possesed: Insanely powerful with invulerable demons saves (4+) and Powerweapon claws; or ... bullshit).
- Core rules themselves: charging? ROLL FOR IT LOL! Certain objectives, terrain and battlefield conditions? Random tables hahaha! The special trait that the Warlord (bestest HQ) of your army has? RANDOM TABLE! The psychic powers your Psykers get? Guess what! More random tables :D :D :D
- Possessed Meringues: yeah, a random table. Also, overpriced and they don't even get Frag Grenades, so they always go last in combat. No, they can't choose them as an upgrade. Though Daemon means automatic 5++ and that means you can Tzeench them to 4++, but... that's expensive.
- Chaos Spawn: random number of attacks IIRC, random bonus each turn
- Every time you win in a duel or close combat: leader of the unit rolls on the Chaos Gifts table (d66). Including "You turn into a Chaos Spawn and leave the unit", "you turn into a Daemon Prince and leave the unit" and "roll again twice".
- I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-A-Dreadnought: random frenzy table
Defilers are the least of your dinozords. Tjeck out the Forgefiend, Maulerfiend and Helldrake. One of these runs about like a Beast, has many attacks, gets built-in Close Combat Melta Attacks or reduces other peoples' attacks, and also has a 5++ and Regeneration 5+. Another one has a pair of Gatling Autocannon weapons that can be swapped for Plasma Cannons, and can also take a third Plasma Cannon in its face. It also gets the 5++ and Regeneration 5+. The Helldrake is the Flyer with good armour, 5++, Regeneration 5+ and one gatling autocannon or the Torrent AP 3 Flamer.The other stuff looks interesting too. I'm assuming Dinozords == Defilers/Pieplate-Crabs?
You have no idea. This bastard can actually dive bomb metal boxes, split them open, then because you have to pile out of the wreckage in "flamer formation", it transmutes them into corpses. And it's a Flyer so its range is "Yes". And the template, as a Torrent, gets placed up to 6" away.Fast attack with AP 3 flamers is a bad day for even marines; and then there' the beautiful fact that a vehicle is an awesome weapon in any of itself.
And yeah, at points smaller than 1.5K you don't want to go Deathwing. Under 1K you don't even want partial Deathwing. Even Ravenwing will be expensive, but you can probably do it with HQ choice, 2x Tacticool squad, 1-2x Deathwing Bikers. If you're lucky you can also fit a Pred in there.
Last edited by Koumei on Wed May 22, 2013 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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Judging__Eagle
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D:
what the planets?!
It's like they got the most annoying parts of 1e and Rogue Trader... and put them all back in again.
Are..., dare I ask about Orks?
Are they now with a million "luls, we auto-gibbed your terminator" or "kejahakeha! we killed ourselves with our overpriced snotling teleporter-gun! Yays Orkses!" sorts of weapons now?
Did Chaos becoming unreasonable again, make Orks now seem like they have a reasonable codex?
b/c the second would be pretty ironic, compared to how they've been presented in the past.
what the planets?!
It's like they got the most annoying parts of 1e and Rogue Trader... and put them all back in again.
Are..., dare I ask about Orks?
Are they now with a million "luls, we auto-gibbed your terminator" or "kejahakeha! we killed ourselves with our overpriced snotling teleporter-gun! Yays Orkses!" sorts of weapons now?
Did Chaos becoming unreasonable again, make Orks now seem like they have a reasonable codex?
b/c the second would be pretty ironic, compared to how they've been presented in the past.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Wed May 22, 2013 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
>He thinks Orks have a new codex
laughingeldargirls.jpg
The last one you remember using is actually the current one. Interestingly, it has improved in a couple of small ways:
But that's likely to be after Elfdar, which were also in need of something and were getting a lot of leaked info... and will most likely still have a lot of units that fail really badly because the designers missed the point (see: three types of unit that specialise in getting killed in hand to hand!)
So far we've had Chaos Meringues, Dark Angels, Daemons of Chaos, Tau. Arguably Necrons should go at the front there, because while they were released during 5E, they were made with d6E in mind. The future list is likely to be Elfdar, Orks, Spess Mehrins, unknown (probably Tyranids, and potentially Black Templars somewhere down the line).
laughingeldargirls.jpg
The last one you remember using is actually the current one. Interestingly, it has improved in a couple of small ways:
- Allies (team them up with someone that covers their weaknesses)
- Artillery are now some of the toughest things ever, as T7 W2 3+ (IIRC) models instead of AV 10 with 1 HP. So your Gretchin Artillery Lines suddenly rock hardcore mode.
- Fearless no longer suffers extra casualties in close combat (note that while most Daemons are still Fearless, they all suffer from Warp Stability, which is a bit like the old Fearless casualties)
- You will tie your enemy up in combat so well, especially if you go Gretchin. Note that if the game is 2K or more, you can have 360 Gretchin models that are scoring (plus 36 Runt Herds).
- The Skies of Death or whatever book gives them some Flyers. They're not awesome, but they're worth taking.
But that's likely to be after Elfdar, which were also in need of something and were getting a lot of leaked info... and will most likely still have a lot of units that fail really badly because the designers missed the point (see: three types of unit that specialise in getting killed in hand to hand!)
So far we've had Chaos Meringues, Dark Angels, Daemons of Chaos, Tau. Arguably Necrons should go at the front there, because while they were released during 5E, they were made with d6E in mind. The future list is likely to be Elfdar, Orks, Spess Mehrins, unknown (probably Tyranids, and potentially Black Templars somewhere down the line).
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Eh, they're not actually that bad. And they're much better than they once were. It's just that 1. Abloo bloo bloo they're not broken, 2. Some of the things are shit, 3. We like the Dark Angel Tactical Squads more than our own Troops (specifically based on spending points to get the exact same things).
For HQ, some of the specials are worth taking, others are not. As opposed to "never take specials". You can do just fine with Lord + Mark + some kind of special weapon + Burning Brand. Mount/Bike and Invulnerable Save are optional. Likewise a cheap Sorcerer + Mark if that's what you want, and the Mastery increases are a good deal. Hell, for his points, the Forge Lord thing runs about at 2+2+1 = 5 attacks when he doesn't charge. Those are I 1 S 5 AP 1 attacks.
For Elites, yes, they're generally either shit, or better taken as Troops (via Marked Lords). The not-Dreadnought is kind of acceptable I guess. Oh wait, I think Obliterators might be Heavy? They're not as great as they used to be, but aren't shit by any means - that's their brethren the Mutilators!
Troops are golden. You can take your Marines in squads of 5-20, and they're cheap. You can also make them expensive (for instance, by giving them +1 Ld and Hatred: Marines, then also giving them BP+CCW+Bolter and then going max upgrades). You have options there.
Then there are the Cultists. Take 1-2 units of heaps of these and have fun. Plague Marines are still good at sitting on objectives and remaining alive. Noise Marines will shred enemies - take them in squads of 5 (1 Blastmaster, Champ has Doom Siren, take 1-2 Sonic Blasters) or 10 (2 Blastmasters, Champ has Doom Siren, take a few Sonic Blasters with spare points). Don't be stupid and go 20 dudes with Blasters and Masters and Siren and Power Weapon and Banner.
The Rhino is... the Rhino. Note that you can load three weapons onto it if that floats your boat, and you can give it an aura of "No you do not get to Overwatch". Likewise, Daemonic Possession is an option.
Fast Attack gives you Bikers (acceptable), Heeeeeeelldraaaaaaaakes, Chaos Spawn (worth considering as tarpits) and Havocs (acceptable). No there are not Warp Talons, you're imagining things.
Heavy Support gives you the two 'fiends, Havocs and Predators. If I was wrong about Obliterators, you also have those here. The Defiler is decent, just a bit pricey for what it brings to the table. The Land Raider isn't really worth it - too expensive as a lascannon platform, and you don't really have anything worth assault-transporting with it. Vindicators are... nothing special?
Basically, there are numerous decent choices, and there's the Helldrake, which is amazing. But if you literally want Dark Angel tactical squads, then play Dark Angels. Necrons and Guard are currently very strong armies still.
For HQ, some of the specials are worth taking, others are not. As opposed to "never take specials". You can do just fine with Lord + Mark + some kind of special weapon + Burning Brand. Mount/Bike and Invulnerable Save are optional. Likewise a cheap Sorcerer + Mark if that's what you want, and the Mastery increases are a good deal. Hell, for his points, the Forge Lord thing runs about at 2+2+1 = 5 attacks when he doesn't charge. Those are I 1 S 5 AP 1 attacks.
For Elites, yes, they're generally either shit, or better taken as Troops (via Marked Lords). The not-Dreadnought is kind of acceptable I guess. Oh wait, I think Obliterators might be Heavy? They're not as great as they used to be, but aren't shit by any means - that's their brethren the Mutilators!
Troops are golden. You can take your Marines in squads of 5-20, and they're cheap. You can also make them expensive (for instance, by giving them +1 Ld and Hatred: Marines, then also giving them BP+CCW+Bolter and then going max upgrades). You have options there.
Then there are the Cultists. Take 1-2 units of heaps of these and have fun. Plague Marines are still good at sitting on objectives and remaining alive. Noise Marines will shred enemies - take them in squads of 5 (1 Blastmaster, Champ has Doom Siren, take 1-2 Sonic Blasters) or 10 (2 Blastmasters, Champ has Doom Siren, take a few Sonic Blasters with spare points). Don't be stupid and go 20 dudes with Blasters and Masters and Siren and Power Weapon and Banner.
The Rhino is... the Rhino. Note that you can load three weapons onto it if that floats your boat, and you can give it an aura of "No you do not get to Overwatch". Likewise, Daemonic Possession is an option.
Fast Attack gives you Bikers (acceptable), Heeeeeeelldraaaaaaaakes, Chaos Spawn (worth considering as tarpits) and Havocs (acceptable). No there are not Warp Talons, you're imagining things.
Heavy Support gives you the two 'fiends, Havocs and Predators. If I was wrong about Obliterators, you also have those here. The Defiler is decent, just a bit pricey for what it brings to the table. The Land Raider isn't really worth it - too expensive as a lascannon platform, and you don't really have anything worth assault-transporting with it. Vindicators are... nothing special?
Basically, there are numerous decent choices, and there's the Helldrake, which is amazing. But if you literally want Dark Angel tactical squads, then play Dark Angels. Necrons and Guard are currently very strong armies still.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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squirrelloid
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Sigh. Noise Marines should have rules that encourage them to be taken as squads in multiples of *6*, because that number is sacred to Slaanesh. Chaos hasn't had a non-sucky codex since 4th edition, because they keep fucking the fluff up along with giving them crap rules. If they only fucked up the rules, it would be easier to forgive GW...
Tzeentch might be worthwhile if they still get sorcerors in every Thousands Son squad (have not looked), because they can always choose to roll on the main rulebook tables, and that's good enough that spamming psykers is actually appealing. Especially since Psychic Hoods never work against the good powers in 6th (namely, the ones that bless your own units). Divination and Biomancy are the general go-tos. (Prescience is really nice. Biomancy has a number of quality powers, but those you'll have to roll for.)
Tzeentch might be worthwhile if they still get sorcerors in every Thousands Son squad (have not looked), because they can always choose to roll on the main rulebook tables, and that's good enough that spamming psykers is actually appealing. Especially since Psychic Hoods never work against the good powers in 6th (namely, the ones that bless your own units). Divination and Biomancy are the general go-tos. (Prescience is really nice. Biomancy has a number of quality powers, but those you'll have to roll for.)
Yes and no. You have a crazy expensive squad with a crazy expensive (as in "Wait, that's like your HQ choice") unit leader. They're Slow But Purposeful, have AP 3 Bolters, do not into melee, and the one sorcerer (who can be sniped out, remember!) gets Mastery 1 and one power... which has to be from the fucking awful Tzeench table. No, you do not get to just choose a Biomancy one. But he's still a psyker for the purpose of being ganked by anti-psyker weapons and the various "All psykers die" effects that certain random terrain/battlefield tables can bring about.squirrelloid wrote:Tzeentch might be worthwhile if they still get sorcerors in every Thousands Son squad (have not looked),
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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rasmuswagner
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It's not just a lot of random tables. It's also allocation. As in "closest models die first; if they are equidistant, which will happen all the fucking time, waste your time setting up and resolving a random selection".Judging__Eagle wrote:D:
It's like they got the most annoying parts of 1e and Rogue Trader... and put them all back in again.
Are..., dare I ask about Orks?
Then there's characters shooting and shooting at characters, an lolrandom chargerange.
Orks get utterly fucked in close combat by everybody now.
Every time you play in a "low magic world" with D&D rules (or derivates), a unicorn steps on a kitten and an orphan drops his ice cream cone.
How so?
Any ork unit won't lose close combat by anything other then a dedicated assault unit.
Orks seem to be doing fairly well with the new edition. Sure some units might not work, but its a 4th edition codex.
With buff to fearless shoota mobs are deadly.
Lootas are great.
Bike nobs tear through anything.
Any ork unit won't lose close combat by anything other then a dedicated assault unit.
Orks seem to be doing fairly well with the new edition. Sure some units might not work, but its a 4th edition codex.
With buff to fearless shoota mobs are deadly.
Lootas are great.
Bike nobs tear through anything.
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squirrelloid
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More adventures in people not understanding WH40k rules... Reserves
6th Edition made this weird set of rules that compels you to put no more than 50% of your units into reserves... sort of.
So, you count up all your units and divide by 2, and this is the number of units you can designate as reserves. Sounds simple, right? Hahaha, no, this is GW, fail is inevitable.
The problem is that units which are compelled to start in reserves don't count for this. It's not 100% clear whether the thing they don't count for is the total number of units, or the 50% you can put in reserves, because poorly defined referential clauses suck. But let's be generous and assume they in fact meant they don't count for either.
A unit and its dedicated transport count as 1 unit for these purposes.
But wait, I have a drop pod (compelled into reserves) and a squad of 10 marines (not compelled into reserves - they don't have to use their drop pod). It counts as 1 unit, but do i count it for these calculations or not... I don't even know what they intended, but a literal reading is that the squad counts for your total number of units because it isn't compelled into reserves, even though the drop pod wouldn't count.
But wait, there's more, the unit has to declare combat squadding before you make this calculation, so if it combat squads it counts as two units for this calculation.
More confusing, they released a FAQ saying that units deployed onto transports compelled into reserves do not count towards the 50%. That is, they still count as units for determining how many units you have (and thus for determining how big that 50% is), but they don't count as having been reserved. So my combat squadded marines add 2 to my total number of units, and thus 1 to the number of units i can place in reserves, but if they both get on their drop pod that's 2 units which are in reserves but don't count as being in reserves for my limit.
You'd think the parade of confusion and fail was over, but you'd be wrong. Enter Independent Characters.
"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." (p39)
Yes, that does in fact say that *any* independent character can join a unit in reserves simply by declaring it, whether that independent character was reserved or not. (As an alternative to deploying in coherency with a unit, it occurs *during* deployment, after reserves have been designated).
GW then included a nice note in the reserve rules about how independent characters who were designated as reserves can join units in reserve.
For some reason, people see that and think 'Independent characters not in reserve can't join units in reserve.' The rules don't say that. And the quote above gives *any* independent character permission to join units in reserve. So why the note in the reserve rules? Because units in reserves don't deploy during set-up, and therefore they'd never get the chance to exercise their p39 right to join a unit in reserves. But GW wants to make sure players don't lose their opportunity to join ICs to units, by stupidity or incompetence (since they could have just not designated the IC as a reserve), so for once they cover all their bases and specified that ICs in reserves are entitled to join units and thus come in from reserves with them. This is almost competent rules writing, except it separates IC behavior for joining units by *almost 100 pages*, which causes confusion.
So most people insist that Independent Characters not held in reserve can't join units in reserve. How they derive that from a rule which only mentions characters in reserves, and only permits them to do something, is unclear, since the above quoted rule gives clear permission to join units in reserves for any independent character. Nowhere do the rules limit the unit-joining powers of independent characters during deployment.
But yes, this means that technically an army of 4 independent characters and 4 squads can designate the 4 squads as reserves, then during deployment join the characters to those squads, and start everything in reserves. (Of course, without some way to come in from reserves on turn 1 - which exist - they're going to lose before they make a reserve roll). Of course, to do that you'll probably have to have a lengthy argument with your opponent first, because 40k players and reading comprehension don't seem to be great tastes that taste great together.
6th Edition made this weird set of rules that compels you to put no more than 50% of your units into reserves... sort of.
So, you count up all your units and divide by 2, and this is the number of units you can designate as reserves. Sounds simple, right? Hahaha, no, this is GW, fail is inevitable.
The problem is that units which are compelled to start in reserves don't count for this. It's not 100% clear whether the thing they don't count for is the total number of units, or the 50% you can put in reserves, because poorly defined referential clauses suck. But let's be generous and assume they in fact meant they don't count for either.
A unit and its dedicated transport count as 1 unit for these purposes.
But wait, I have a drop pod (compelled into reserves) and a squad of 10 marines (not compelled into reserves - they don't have to use their drop pod). It counts as 1 unit, but do i count it for these calculations or not... I don't even know what they intended, but a literal reading is that the squad counts for your total number of units because it isn't compelled into reserves, even though the drop pod wouldn't count.
But wait, there's more, the unit has to declare combat squadding before you make this calculation, so if it combat squads it counts as two units for this calculation.
More confusing, they released a FAQ saying that units deployed onto transports compelled into reserves do not count towards the 50%. That is, they still count as units for determining how many units you have (and thus for determining how big that 50% is), but they don't count as having been reserved. So my combat squadded marines add 2 to my total number of units, and thus 1 to the number of units i can place in reserves, but if they both get on their drop pod that's 2 units which are in reserves but don't count as being in reserves for my limit.
You'd think the parade of confusion and fail was over, but you'd be wrong. Enter Independent Characters.
"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." (p39)
Yes, that does in fact say that *any* independent character can join a unit in reserves simply by declaring it, whether that independent character was reserved or not. (As an alternative to deploying in coherency with a unit, it occurs *during* deployment, after reserves have been designated).
GW then included a nice note in the reserve rules about how independent characters who were designated as reserves can join units in reserve.
For some reason, people see that and think 'Independent characters not in reserve can't join units in reserve.' The rules don't say that. And the quote above gives *any* independent character permission to join units in reserve. So why the note in the reserve rules? Because units in reserves don't deploy during set-up, and therefore they'd never get the chance to exercise their p39 right to join a unit in reserves. But GW wants to make sure players don't lose their opportunity to join ICs to units, by stupidity or incompetence (since they could have just not designated the IC as a reserve), so for once they cover all their bases and specified that ICs in reserves are entitled to join units and thus come in from reserves with them. This is almost competent rules writing, except it separates IC behavior for joining units by *almost 100 pages*, which causes confusion.
So most people insist that Independent Characters not held in reserve can't join units in reserve. How they derive that from a rule which only mentions characters in reserves, and only permits them to do something, is unclear, since the above quoted rule gives clear permission to join units in reserves for any independent character. Nowhere do the rules limit the unit-joining powers of independent characters during deployment.
But yes, this means that technically an army of 4 independent characters and 4 squads can designate the 4 squads as reserves, then during deployment join the characters to those squads, and start everything in reserves. (Of course, without some way to come in from reserves on turn 1 - which exist - they're going to lose before they make a reserve roll). Of course, to do that you'll probably have to have a lengthy argument with your opponent first, because 40k players and reading comprehension don't seem to be great tastes that taste great together.
Last edited by squirrelloid on Fri May 24, 2013 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah, I believe there has been a case in a tournament where someone legally managed to get all their forces in Reserves at the start and then it was pointed out that they lost the game at the very start of the first turn.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
What is best in life: snipers or heavy bolters?
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Whipstitch
- Prince
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If you play IG though, you can have both in large numbers, so it's really much of a muchness. To a lesser extent you can do the same with Eldar (Rangers and all the things that get Heavy BoltersShuricannons).
That said, while you want lots of HBs and a non-zero amount of snipers, plasma is the new black. Don't feel bad about having autocannons or whatever though, they certainly have their uses.
That said, while you want lots of HBs and a non-zero amount of snipers, plasma is the new black. Don't feel bad about having autocannons or whatever though, they certainly have their uses.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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OgreBattle
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New Eldar codex coming out rumored rules so far
Wraithknight, a 9inch tall model. Piloted by twins (one is dead and interred in the machine)
t8 w6 3+
jump pack
can take a 5+ inv sv
has s10 ap2 lances, can take a s6 ap2 heavy3 blast weapon (one on each arm so 6 shots)
Fire Dragons are 7pts more expensive and have 3+ svs
Wraithguard get a new weapon option called the D-Scythe
there's also a melee variant with +1s and ap3, or ap2 and a shield that grants an inv sv
wraithsight is gone
vypers have bs4
Scatter lasers are now 'targetter' weapons, if a scatter laser hits, any other weapon fired from that unit is twin linked, so the scatterlaser/brightlance warwalker combo that GW likes to display on boxes is now functional. Or you just go dual scat lasers for rerolling 8 shots.
shuriken catapults have Bladestorm, a wound roll of 6 always wounds and is ap2 (they do not have the penetration dice of rending)
Their range is still short (12", 18", 24")
Eldar can run and fire (and possibly run after firing)
Their bomber craft is piloted by a warlock, it Terrorizes (removes Fearless, reduces LD) and forces people to reroll LD rolls.
The Crystal Targetting Matrix is back, but rules unknown
"Ghostfield matrix", dont know what it does
Holofields add +1 to your cover save
Wraithknight, a 9inch tall model. Piloted by twins (one is dead and interred in the machine)
t8 w6 3+
jump pack
can take a 5+ inv sv
has s10 ap2 lances, can take a s6 ap2 heavy3 blast weapon (one on each arm so 6 shots)
Fire Dragons are 7pts more expensive and have 3+ svs
Wraithguard get a new weapon option called the D-Scythe
there's also a melee variant with +1s and ap3, or ap2 and a shield that grants an inv sv
wraithsight is gone
vypers have bs4
Scatter lasers are now 'targetter' weapons, if a scatter laser hits, any other weapon fired from that unit is twin linked, so the scatterlaser/brightlance warwalker combo that GW likes to display on boxes is now functional. Or you just go dual scat lasers for rerolling 8 shots.
shuriken catapults have Bladestorm, a wound roll of 6 always wounds and is ap2 (they do not have the penetration dice of rending)
Their range is still short (12", 18", 24")
Eldar can run and fire (and possibly run after firing)
Their bomber craft is piloted by a warlock, it Terrorizes (removes Fearless, reduces LD) and forces people to reroll LD rolls.
The Crystal Targetting Matrix is back, but rules unknown
"Ghostfield matrix", dont know what it does
Holofields add +1 to your cover save
Apparently they get two shoulder-mount weapons (Bright Lances or whatever), and two "main weapons". Left one is the S 10 AP 2 "Instant death on a 6 to Wound" cannon or a shield that grants 5++, the Right one is another of that big gun, or the Blast 3 one (with the Blind rule) or a "glaive" (it's a sword. GW keep making this mistake).OgreBattle wrote: Wraithknight, a 9inch tall model. Piloted by twins (one is dead and interred in the machine)
t8 w6 3+
jump pack
can take a 5+ inv sv
has s10 ap2 lances, can take a s6 ap2 heavy3 blast weapon (one on each arm so 6 shots)
Haha. They're completely overeacting to how everybody took them before. Aside from the crazy points increase, it doesn't matter because this isn't the edition where every unit is in a Razorback.Fire Dragons are 7pts more expensive and have 3+ svs
The Spiritseer is now more than just "A Warlock that gets added to Wraithguard". They have their own rules, a special stick, and their own psychic powers, and if you take one as HQ, your Wraithguard (both versions?) get to be Troops.Wraithguard get a new weapon option called the D-Scythe
there's also a melee variant with +1s and ap3, or ap2 and a shield that grants an inv sv
This one is legitimately a cool idea.Their bomber craft is piloted by a warlock, it Terrorizes (removes Fearless, reduces LD) and forces people to reroll LD rolls.
Making 6-to-Wound special looks like the new special thing for Eldar this time around. No word on if they're going to either make specialist units (Scorpions, Banshees, Spiders, Hawks, Spears, Reapers) cheap enough to be worth taking, shore up their weaknesses so they can be awesome at one thing and not-a-total-waste the rest of the time, or "none of the above, there's a reason we're not giving them new models!"
My bet is on the third one there, for the record.
Oh, and there's a Ranger special character (HQ). He has BS 9 and causes instant death on a 6 to Wound, and he has something like nine special rules, including "Rangers can be upgraded to have Pathfinders" and "Rangers can Infiltrate as close to the enemy as they like".
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.