[Non-US] News That Makes You laugh/cry/neither...

[Kaelik]

DSM probably lives in the west coast, because that seems to be a prominent thought here. I feel very similar, and need to remind myself that there are people in the US who don't all have the same accent and still have some sort of ethnic roots.

I doubt it is exclusive to the west coast. It is certainly true in Texas. It is probably true in most of the south and west, and really, everywhere that isn't New Jersey and New York.

[DSMatticus]

I live in Ohio, actually. Like Kaelik says, I'm almost certain it's more of a "New York region vs the rest of the country" thing. That is the part of the country immigrants have historically arrived at, and lots of them just stayed there and set up communities for themselves. And the result is that today, a lot of that region is a weird patchwork quilt of ethnic communities nothing like any other part of the country. You can actually be Irish in New York and have it mean something. It means you grew up on that block over there with a bunch of other people who call themself Irish, and you didn't grow up on that block next to it which is a bunch of people who call themself something else.

I would actually be interested to know how much of Maj's family history happens in New York, if any. Because even my grandparents do not care that they are mostly German, and they cook like they're Irish - potatoes in and on everything, plus some more potato on the side.

[name_here]

I'm from Virginia; most people seem to know about their ethnic history but not really care.

[John Magnum]

I'm from a suburb of Chicago, and I don't know my ethnic history and I don't know if any of the white people I know do.

[Maj]

Your parents' experiences growing up are going to seem wildly out of place in today's world, and your grandparents' even moreso, and your son is going to find your's downright baffling some day.

I expect this. I've often remarked on my mother's experiences with disbelief.

I've never met anyone my age who actually cared what brand of white they were.

I feel like we're talking past each other. No one in my life (except, ironically, my father who sent me a diatribe about naming my son Giovanni) has discriminated against me because I'm Italian. If anything, they discriminate for me ("Oh, you're Italian? And you love to cook? I bet the food at your house is great!") - even people who are a decade younger than I am do that.

I don't care what color anyone is - white, whiter, tan, brown, orange, black, green, cerulean, vermilion... I'm not going to love or hate you because you're Protestant or Catholic, Buddhist, Atheist, Confucianist, Rainbow Unicornist, Sprach zarathustra... But I still distinguish myself by my personal culture, and I find the cultures of others to be deeply interesting.

It seems to me that you're conflating judging someone because of their culture with identifying with people via culture. I think there are lots of people who have a culture of their own, and don't resent others for theirs.

Ultimately, though, you answered the fundamental question I asked: Was your claim true or just pulled from somewhere? You pulled it from the same place I pulled my response - anecdotal evidence.

Southerners and New Yorkers are very different culturally.

Yes. Yes they are. There's actually a study that just came out {pdf} about the differences in attitude of people in the US.

I would actually be interested to know how much of Maj's family history happens in New York, if any.

My mom's family came from Italy through Ellis Island, but promptly moved to California where they remain to this day. My father's family lived in Washington state for most of their lives, and while my dad moved around because of military and business, he currently also lives in Washington.

My husband's Norwegian family came through Ellis Island and promptly moved to North Dakota/Minnesota where they remain to this day. Ess' mom's family went to Minnesota via Canada, and they stayed there until their deaths. Ess' mom moved to California to escape the humdrum of it all, then moved to Washington, and is now in Florida.

I lived in Connecticut for six years when I was younger, but I've also lived in San Francisco, Portland, and Chicago. So not much New York except for the important part.

[DSMatticus]

Well, no. I'm not trying to imply you are treated negatively for being Italian or whatever. I'm implying that when you tell people the finer points of your ancestry, they don't know what you're telling them at all. They don't have any concepts associated with the words you are saying. Now, that is incredibly less true for you than someone like me. Everyone knows what Italian cooking is, but I doubt there's anyone here (including me) who could tell you what a German American's dinner table is supposed to look like. And I'm almost certain that 99% of the time when you tell people you're of Italian descent, they think "so... like everyone else, but you have spaghetti for dinner more often?"

It's not a part of how most people view us, or even a part of how most of us view ourselves. It's something we're usually aware of, but it's not the sort of thing we use to sort ourselves into different categories. The lines between those ethnicities did not survive as their populations diffused across America, and today are little more than quaint curiosities for most of the country. You know and can tell people your eye color, too, but people won't label you by it.

[Ancient History]

If you're a natural red head though...

[Whipstitch]

Maj, what DSM is talking about a very weird and particular strain of privilege and it totes exists in the upper midwest in particular. It's not malicious or anything, it's just that if you're German American in Minnesota then you have something in common with nearly 40% of the other people who live in the state, and virtually everyone outside of that category is still going to be from the northern parts of Western Europe. So it's not that you don't have a cultural identity that can be identified by outsiders, it's that you seriously don't think of yourself in terms of having an identity that can be easily identified by outsiders, because you don't have any practice explaining what you do or why you do it thanks to never being called upon to do so. It's how you end up with newscasters doing time in Iowa to learn Television English and people claiming that they eat "American food" (which, incidentally, features a lot of potatoes and ground meats and would look suspiciously Scandinavian or German to actual Europeans.

Lemme put it this way: I didn't even really understand that you could be ethnically Jewish until I was in my mid-teens. Because again, Minnesota is filled with ethnicities that are unfortunately associated with hostility towards Jews and so Jews never really moved here. I never even met one until I spent time out east, because oftentimes it seriously seems like the only Jews around here are the Coen brothers and Al Franken.

[Maj]

Now, that is incredibly less true for you than someone like me. Everyone knows what Italian cooking is, but I doubt there's anyone here (including me) who could tell you what a German American's dinner table is supposed to look like.

You've got to be shitting me. Sausage, mashed potatoes, root vegetables, cabbage, pumpernickel bread, and beer. With Black Forest cake for dessert. That's not even hard.

And I'm almost certain that 99% of the time when you tell people you're of Italian descent, they think "so... like everyone else, but you have spaghetti for dinner more often?"

Not really, no. I get asked about how to use olive oil, how to make pasta and tiramisu, and people ask me about "real" pizza. Every rare now and again, I get asked about lasagne. And salami since my family's from Genoa.

It's not a part of how most people view us, or even a part of how most of us view ourselves. It's something we're usually aware of, but it's not the sort of thing we use to sort ourselves into different categories.

People expect my life to look like an Olive Garden commercial, and for the most part, it kinda does. We just don't go out to eat because that's expensive.

The lines between those ethnicities did not survive as their populations diffused across America, and today are little more than quaint curiosities for most of the country.

I don't think that you can speak for most of the country. I'm providing my experience, not in order to trump yours, but merely as a counterpoint. People might not judge others because of their heritage, but I do believe that heritage survives.

You seriously don't think of yourself in terms of having an identity that can be easily identified by outsiders, because you don't have any practice explaining what you do or why you do it thanks to never being called upon to do so.

Noted.

[sabs]

On the flip side I've been to Minnesota, and all I could think was, "Holy fuck these people are fucking swedish as hell."

Now, I lived in California, and basically never met any white people. They more strongly typed as hippies, or rich conservatibe ass hats, than white. And when I say southerners, I don't mean fucking Texans. Texans. are Texans. I'm talking about Georgia/South Carolina, North Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama. The south of the Confederacy. They're different, and yes, they are white, but if you try to compare them to people in the Midwest, they'll be thoroughly confused why you think they're similar. They don't even know how to make real fried chicken

Boston cares very much wether you're a Wasp from the Revolution, or an Irish immigrant, or something later.. even to this day.

[sabs]

And People totally judge people because of their Heritage. Now maybe it happens more in the North East. But when I went to MInessota, my first thought was.. holy fuck those bastards are swedish as hell.

If you really don't know what kind of foods are more likely to be in a German american meal, than somewhere else? You're just either an idiot, or lying through your teeth.

Even the recipes for Pot fucking roast will differ from region to region in the US.

[Ancient History]

More or less. As much as the US does recognize itself as an ethnic stewpot, we actually have a fairly stronger national identity as Americans than as members of our respective ethnicities or states - which is bizarre when you consider how huge the United States is. Aside from some assholes in Texas (whom constantly have to be reminded that the reason they were let back into the Union is that they suck on their own), you have very few people in the US who would say they're a resident of their native state ahead of a resident of the US. The European Union members for example still think of themselves as French or German first and Europeans a distant second.

[Whipstitch]

If you really don't know what kind of foods are more likely to be in a German american meal, than somewhere else? You're just either an idiot, or lying through your teeth.

Depends on what the "somewhere else" is. Indian food vs. German American is easy. But German American vs. Polish American? Polish American vs. Swedish American? Suddenly you're looking at hotdish all the way down. The population here is a cross-section of where the vodka belt overlaps with the beer belt, so while there's definite differences you're still talking about a shit ton of boiled or braised meats with cabbage or potatoes.

[K]

Anyone ever see that map of Twitter racism? It has the eastern half of the nation as super-racist and the western half as less racist.

My guess is that our confusion about strong identification with European heritage maps pretty closely with that map, basically showing that half of the country thinks very strongly about descent and the other half only sees skin color as a meaningful racial identifier.

For example, here in California we don't give a fuck about which European ancestors spawned your great-grandmother and wouldn't even think about asking Italian-descended friends for recipes, and I think that this attitude probably lasts as far as Texas.

If we tried super-hard, we could probably map the actual borders of Thinks-Your-Ancestors-Mattered-Land by getting Denners to pipe up with a state-by-state account of local attitudes.

[Chamomile]

Anyone ever see that map of Twitter racism?

This looks suspiciously similar to a population map of the United States.

[Koumei]

So the Coalition government is floating the idea of a national internet filter, on the grounds that it's not actually slow enough in Australia.

Total fu[THIS POST HAS BEEN CENSORED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OF AUSTRALIA]

[PhoneLobster]

As far as I can tell their plan with floating the idea of a national internet filter...

...is to float the idea of a national internet filter...

Just... float it... again... for like the fourth time.

You'd think with all their "Government waste! LABOR government waste! The ONLY government waste! We shall slay it! With the cuts we never were going to make which will be pure efficiencies (that will cause pain to Australians, good morally upright healing pain... mmmm)" that they would say, notice it's been floated 4 times and gotten nothing but experts pouring shit on the idea.

Buuuut... they don't really give a shit about government waste. They know that floating the idea plays well with certain demographics and bullshit micro-parties and they will throw any amount of government money down a black hole of "investigating the option" yet again.

If we are LUCKY they are so stupid they will TRY AND ACTUALLY FUCKING DO IT. Because the utter failure inherit in an ACTUAL national roll out is the only thing that is ever going to kill this project and stop them from using it as a boondoggle for crazy religious fuckers.

And since Tony Abbot actually IS a crazy religious fucker that this shiny falsehood is normally used to distract and placate... there is actually a chance he WILL do the stupid thing here.

Just like with every other stupid fucking thing he might do.

Gee. What. Fun. Times.

[K]

Anyone ever see that map of Twitter racism?

This looks suspiciously similar to a population map of the United States.

It maps very roughly to population centers.

When you look at the two maps, details jump out like the fact that Texas is barely populated on its western side and has a lot of red all over it and California barely registers on the cooler end of red despite a giant and very dense population.

The sheer density of racist tweets on the US map doesn't match up to the population density, and that seems to suggest that there is a different set of cultural values at play.

[erik]

Anyone ever see that map of Twitter racism?

This looks suspiciously similar to a population map of the United States.

... if everyone on the west coast moved to the mid-west?

Heh, but yeah, they are pretty similar. They state that they are normalized by number of tweets, so it shouldn't just be a population map, but there it is. Looks like under representation in the west coast, especially LA and over representation Missourah to Iowa

[edit. Shit, I got tricked into posting this in the non-us thread! Should it be moved?]
For comparison.



vs.

[DSMatticus]

It's not malicious or anything, it's just that if you're German American in Minnesota then you have something in common with nearly 40% of the other people who live in the state, and virtually everyone outside of that category is still going to be from the northern parts of Western Europe. So it's not that you don't have a cultural identity that can be identified by outsiders, it's that you seriously don't think of yourself in terms of having an identity that can be easily identified by outsiders, because you don't have any practice explaining what you do or why you do it thanks to never being called upon to do so.

So, I'm going to call bullshit on you, and we're going to ignore Minnesota, because it's one of the most homogeneous states in the entire country and quite possibly the most bullshit example you could possibly cherrypick. The country as a whole is only 16.5% German American, and in Ohio that's a considerably more impressive 26.5%. Given that the state itself is 86% white, that means for every German American there's a whopping two white people who aren't (for reference, the various Scandinavian groups all clock in at under 1%).

Now your argument appears to be that it's possible to live your entire life as a German American doing German American things and not realize you're doing German American things because every frame of reference you have is German American. And if that were true, where the fuck is everyone else? No, really. 59.5% of Ohio is both white and not German American. What kind of super intra-white segregation is secretly happening in these places to protect all those German Americans from seeing that the Irish Americans exist and are different from them? (And, by the way, we just named the two largest white ethnicities in Ohio and are not yet halfway to covering all whites.) You are asserting that there exists some really hardcore ethnic sorting of whites throughout the country, and it doesn't actually hold up to the demographics. It's genuinely more ridiculous than claiming you could spend your life in Columbus without meeting someone who's black.

Sorry, but no. German Americans and Irish Americans and so on grow up next to eachother all the time without knowing (or caring about) the difference. What part of Ohio you're from is going to be a much better predictor of your cultural practices than whether you are a German Ohioan or an Irish Ohioan. And I am almost certain that German Minnesotans have more in common with Irish Minnesotans than German Minnesotans have in common with German Ohioans. Meanwhile, in Europe, confusing actual Germans and actual Irish would just be downright puzzling. Those ethnic identities have just not survived through huge parts of the country the way they still exist in Europe (which, I will remind you, is the point of this conversation). They're a vestige. You can see the traces if you squint, but they don't do anything anymore.

[Whipstitch]

I used German American mostly because you already mentioned them once and because I was talking about the Upper Midwest in particular as an exaggerated example. You know, because the German American population in the US looks like this and in MN, Iowa, Nebraska and the Dakotas the percentage is all upwards of 30% and more importantly, practically everyone else is still Western European. It is super, crazy white here, and so people here look at you like you're a space alien when you start talking identity politics because that's what happens when everyone is free to assume that their frame of reference is the normative one.

[DSMatticus]

I am actually really super-confused what point you were trying to make now, to be honest. It seems like you're saying that Minnesota (and to a lesser extent the U.S.) is super crazy white and super crazy sheltered and that leads to biases in how we perceive identity. And that is true for a shockingly huge part of the country and I don't disagree, but that's not really related to what I was saying.

I was pointing out that Americans are basically unique in that they think being Western European (which we just call being white, and yes that causes lots of people brain strain over edge cases) is a coherent and sufficient ethnic identity. Saying that Minnesota is a homogeneous blob because it's so incredibly white is completely true, because neither Minnesotans nor outsiders care about the difference between the state's Germans and its Norwegians. But if you said that Western Europe is a homogeneous blob because it's so incredibly white that'd actually be pretty offensive, because Germans do not identify as Norwegians (despite a close and recent shared ancestry). And we don't really understand that we're the exception to the rule, and so we tend to categorize the whole world into ridiculous, high-level ethnicities based on superficial traits that are the size of entire fucking continents and don't really make any sense. But not because of how white we are - because we use "white" as a serious label without realizing how much granularity we're losing.

Edit: Also, I apologize for any unnecessary dickishness in the last post. Totally misread where you were coming from in my confusion.

[Whipstitch]

It's cool.

FWIW, I'd readily agree that there's obviously other factors at play. The whole matter of English American identity is a funny one, for example--you've got the double whammy of the communities being here a long ass time combined with a history that includes being pretty pleased with the way they told the motherland to go fuck itself. The demographers have damn near given up on sorting that one out.

[violence in the media]

Just chiming in to support DSMatticus. Here in Central Florida, few people seem to pay any attention to what flavor of white you happen to be.

@Maj--Is this familiar and delicious?

[Maj]

Just chiming in to support DSMatticus. Here in Central Florida, few people seem to pay any attention to what flavor of white you happen to be.

You know, it could just be the type of people a person hangs out with. I mean, I'm a foodie, so knowing my heritage is relevant to the kitchen. I also love other cultures, so hanging with people who have a perspective about them is another thing I look for in a friend - and I guess that might explain why none of my closest friends are American. I also grew up in a house with a culture vastly different from the people around me, so I always felt different - not in a bad way.

I totally acknowledge that today, white people are just white. But I think it's a stretch to say that most white people don't care about their own flavor of whiteness. There are lots of people - I am one of them, as are many people I know - who care about their own flavor of white because it's relevant to their lives somehow. Ultimately, I don't think we know.

@Maj--Is this familiar and delicious?

I hate spaghetti noodles. When they come out of my pasta machine, they're flat, so they're more like linguine. My family's also more likely to eat pasta in a more pesto sauce kind of way, though my personal preference involves white wine.