How to make Shadowrun less bad

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:58 am

How about swinging around katanas vs shooting a gun, should you be able to go full cyborg ninja and never rely on projectile weapons?

Should you be able to deflect bullets with your high frequency blade?

A Man In Black wrote: Plus, it makes MGSIV Otacon a playable character.

And here's what you get as a high end Rigger:

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Does R2D2 count as an iconic hacker character? He jacks his robo-tube into wall sockets and then problems are solved.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:25 am

One of the criticisms of magicians in Shadowrun is that their magic is the only role protected niche. Stop protecting it, make it so anyone can get a little magic, and really drive home the whole "magic is back" plot point of the game.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:51 am

Hicks wrote:One of the criticisms of magicians in Shadowrun is that their magic is the only role protected niche. Stop protecting it, make it so anyone can get a little magic, and really drive home the whole "magic is back" plot point of the game.

If people capable of magic constitute 1% of the population at a point in time, and constitute 25% more of the population each year (capped at 100%), then in 21 years, everyone will be capable of magic.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:16 am

Hicks wrote:One of the criticisms of magicians in Shadowrun is that their magic is the only role protected niche. Stop protecting it, make it so anyone can get a little magic, and really drive home the whole "magic is back" plot point of the game.

Both you and... Frank have suggested that, now.

...or maybe it was dean.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:24 am

Twas I. On the subject I wanted to mention that it may be the case that Mage's in Shadowrun are unbalanced for reasons entirely unrelated to their singular role protection. It could be, as DSMatticus suggested, that Mages are unbalanced because Mage powers are simply superior to any alternatives. If that's the case then removing the Mage's role protection won't solve that problem but it's still worth mentioning because the idea of balancing a character against another character who's options are "Everything the first guy had plus extra" is a huge problem conceptually.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:52 am

OgreBattle wrote:How about swinging around katanas vs shooting a gun, should you be able to go full cyborg ninja and never rely on projectile weapons?

Should you be able to deflect bullets with your high frequency blade?

There's really no wrong answer. The only problem I can see is that deflecting bullets with your sword because of cyber reflexes means that Raiden gets to melee but Molly Millions doesn't.

Does R2D2 count as an iconic hacker character? He jacks his robo-tube into wall sockets and then problems are solved.

I would have no problem whatsoever with Hackeriggers solving problems with an R2D2 drone.

It also keeps Hackeriggers on the combat action economy. Mages get faster with better magic, sams get faster with better cyber, hackeriggers get more actions because they learn to manage multiple drones at once or hack while also managing drones.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:22 am

It's also partly that being a mage who can do lots of magic things is cheap, while being a cyborg who can do lots of cyborgy things is expensive. And of course, there are archetypes that don't meaningfully interact with essence at all and can be grafted onto any character.

But honestly, it's not that big of a deal if the magic toolbox actually is bigger than other toolboxes - it's much more important that you price individual tools correctly. Even if the cyborg ninja toolbox is a subset of the magic toolbox with different sfx and counters, all that really has to mean is:
1) There is less variety among cyborg ninjas than mages.
2) There is a certain amount of advancement at which cyborg ninjas have to stop acquiring cyborgy things while mages can continue to acquire magicky things. You should expect characters to retire before then.

If an individual mage can do all the things the cyborg ninja can and more, it's not because the magic toolbox in general is too large - it's because the tools in that toolbox are too cheap and choosing to get your tools there is a massive discount other characters don't have access to. Remember: the wizard is OP while the sorcerer is only powerful. Both are picking from the same lists, it's just that the former gets to grab way more things.

Edit: Mind, this is not say I'm averse to having problems magic can't solve that cyborg ninjas can. That should probably happen. But if things are priced sanely then having a magic equivalent for every cyborg ninja isn't actually a damning flaw - it means the space for magic characters is larger than for cyborg ninjas, but not that any individual magic character is more relevant than a cyborg ninja (up to a certain resource limit where archetypes start getting maxed out).

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:56 am

On Riggers being Hackers: I understand why people would think that was a good idea, but it's pretty obviously not a good idea. Firstly, thematically there is really very little overlap. Hackers are, well, Hackers, while Riggers are Mech Pilots. Consider all the pieces of fiction that have hackers, and all the pieces of fiction that have mech pilots. Now confine yourself to just the pieces of fiction that have both hackers and mech pilots. How many of them have all the mech pilots also be hackers or all the hackers also be mech pilots? Can you name one piece of fiction where the overlap is total even in one direction? Because I can name like twenty five series that have non-pilot hackers and non-hacker pilots.

Hackers.

Riggers.

But beyond that, Riggers are already a complete breakfast and do not need to be Hackers. Every character needs to contribute to the legwork, the stealth missions, and the action sequences. Does anyone seriously doubt that Riggers are able to pull their weight in those areas? Every infiltration begins with the Rigger inserting the team, and every escape ends with the Rigger driving away. Even if no one else has anything to do during a stealth mission, the Rigger still does. As long as physical scouting could be useful (and when could it not be?), camera drones are going to be awesome. Riggers also require hands-on technical skills to make and maintain their murder droids, which are useful both during legwork and on missions. And finally, Riggers have fleets of military murder robots, meaning that the question is not whether they can contribute to action sequences, but whether the entire rest of the team can manage to not get outshined by them.

Riggers do legwork with subtlety.

Riggers simply don't need to be Hackers. Hackers have clear things to do during legwork and stealth missions, but Riggers don't need to do those things to pull their weight.

DSM wrote:But honestly, it's not that big of a deal if the magic toolbox actually is bigger than other toolboxes - it's much more important that you price individual tools correctly.

Very importantly this. Ultimately, in a cyberpunk game, there will always be things your character can't do, and there will always be power levels in the game your character won't have. No matter how good you get as a Cyborg Ninja, you're never going to be able to be able to meaningfully fight a carrier group. No matter how good you get in no matter how many fields, there are still going to be specialists in the world that missions revolve around. Brain surgeons, accountants, viral epidemiologists, whatever. You're not going to be able to do all of it.

The overall potential breadth of your archetype is no more meaningful than the potential breadth of the Fighter class is to an individual Fighter character in D&D. The number of feats that you could have gotten instead of the ones you actually did get is pretty much meaningless. You play a single character, not an entire chapter.

Mages being overpowered compared to non-Mages is merely a math problem. Even if Mages are role protected and the other archetypes are not.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:36 am

FrankTrollman wrote:On Riggers being Hackers: I understand why people would think that was a good idea, but it's pretty obviously not a good idea. Firstly, thematically there is really very little overlap. Hackers are, well, Hackers, while Riggers are Mech Pilots. Consider all the pieces of fiction that have hackers, and all the pieces of fiction that have mech pilots. Now confine yourself to just the pieces of fiction that have both hackers and mech pilots. How many of them have all the mech pilots also be hackers or all the hackers also be mech pilots? Can you name one piece of fiction where the overlap is total even in one direction? Because I can name like twenty five series that have non-pilot hackers and non-hacker pilots.

Otakon was mentioned a page earlier, he hacks stuff and accompanies Snake in a little bipedal drone.

Maybe 40k's tech priests who talk to computers and have flying drone assistants, though I don't know if there is anything like hacking in that setting. Kururu from Sgt Keroro is their 'tech specialist' which means he does hacking, and invention, and those inventions include robots that walk around.

BLAME! has a technology wiz character, Cibo, who joins the protagonist by telling him "Hey you need my hacking skills to get further!", among her tools are little flying spheres that do stuff for her, and I believe she's taken over wandering robot drones before with her hacking powers.

GitS's Major Kusanagi is... well she's everything, being a full conversion cyborg from birth and supreme hacker and a stash of multiple bodies to hop in and out of. As for Cyborg Ninjas vs Carrier Groups, Appleseed gives an example of Briareos's cybernetic control system being able to potentially operate a whole carrier group by itself, I guess that's like being a SR2e rigger (I think that's 2e where its a samurai shtick). Tachikomas are more like their own PC's than drones though, but there are 'dumber' drones that exist in that setting. Briareos from Appleseed is able to autonomously control things beyond his own body thanks to his hecatonchires system and it's mentioned he could "run an entire carrier by himself", maybe that's where early Shadowrun got its "Samurai rigger" inspiration?

Even if your Shadowrunners are going against drones there's always the "I hack the drone!" option (even if it sucks in-game, conceptually it should work), so if a hacker can freeze a drone then hackers possessing drones is an open possibility that leads to more hacker and rigger overlap. The line between Samurai/Rigger/Hacker seems to blur when you get to higher power levels.

So for me, the 3 iconic images I see are the cybered out street samurai dual wielding a katana and machinegun, the magician with glowy stuff, and then a guy holding a keyboard/ipad thing who plugs stuff into his neck (and then there's a floating robot thing over his shoulder). He does tech stuff so that can be rigging and hacking.

*But then MGS also has super cyborg who have autonomous drones but don't do any hacking. Everything is just blending together.

**If we look at the Mage archetype though they're expected to summon spirits and throw stunballs and swim around the astral plane and still be called just a Mage. So why does Hacking and Rigging need archtype distinction when mages already do the magical equivalent? The way I see it...

Hits things till they fall over: Samurai & Adepts & Sorcery slinging
Owns Pets: Rigger & Conjuring spirits
Info gather: Hacking & Astral projecting

A mage does all 3 and stays a mage.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:05 pm

OgreBattle wrote:Otakon was mentioned a page earlier, he hacks stuff and accompanies Snake in a little bipedal drone.

Also there's Liquid Snake in that series. However, as you yourself concede, MGS has mech pilots who don't do any hacking. And you should probably be willing to concede that some of the hackers in the series don't pilot robots.

And the bottom line is that it's only a point for the people wanting to merge Hackers and Riggers if every Hacker is a pilot and every pilot is a Hacker. If there are any characters in a piece of fiction that are only one or the other, that's a point for not merging the two archetypes. Metal Gear, for example, is a point for not merging the archetypes, even though there are characters who do both things. Shadowrun is a skill based system, so if a character wants to be a hybrid of two archetypes, they can just do that.

-Username17

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:45 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: And the bottom line is that it's only a point for the people wanting to merge Hackers and Riggers if every Hacker is a pilot and every pilot is a Hacker. If there are any characters in a piece of fiction that are only one or the other, that's a point for not merging the two archetypes. Metal Gear, for example, is a point for not merging the archetypes, even though there are characters who do both things. Shadowrun is a skill based system, so if a character wants to be a hybrid of two archetypes, they can just do that.

-Username17

I really dont see the problem, rigging and hacking is tech stuff. Just a different specialisation.
Just like Conjuring and Spellcasting is magic stuff...

If you really want to seperate them, you could use the Aspected magician method. Only problem you dont need a quality to be an hacker and/or rigger (currently).

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:46 pm

Hacking and rigging are synergistic because if you want to use drones effectively, you're going to want to prevent them from getting hacked. If you're unable to defend your drones from hacking attempts, then you're going to make a pretty terrible rigger because an enemy hacker can just turn all your drones against your team, and without hacking skills you have no way to get them back on your side. Sure, you can be a pure pilot using a wired connection to drive your vehicle, but if you want to run drones or do anything controlling a vehicle remotely, you better have some hacking skills.

Now obviously, not every hacker is going to take rigging, just like every magician doesn't take summoning and sorcery. But there's going to be reasonable incentive to take both because there's a definite synergy.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:05 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:No matter how good you get as a Cyborg Ninja, you're never going to be able to be able to meaningfully fight a carrier group.

Well, there was that one time in MGS4 that Raiden blocked a sub's charge attack by being cyberninja Xtreme.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:18 pm

Korwin wrote:I really dont see the problem, rigging and hacking is tech stuff. Just a different specialisation.
Just like Conjuring and Spellcasting is magic stuff...

That is probably the dumbest possible way to look at something. You might as well be arguing that Street Samurai should all be Faces because it's all "physical stuff." It's just different skills, different attribute focuses, and different resource allocations. But other than that, it's exactly the same!

It's a skill based system that has soft rather than hard archetypes. If you want to play a Hacker/Street Sam or a Rigger/Face you are of course welcome to do that. You have to split your attributes, skills, and resources appropriately, but it can be done.

Cyberzombie wrote:Hacking and rigging are synergistic because if you want to use drones effectively, you're going to want to prevent them from getting hacked.

Remember how I just said that Korwin's way of looking at things was about the dumbest way you could look at things? That's... still true. But you're giving him a run for his money.

Rigging and Ninjing are synergistic because if you want to use drones effectively, you're going to want to keep them from getting spotted by sentries or blown up with guns. Rigging and Facing are synergistic because if you want to use drones effectively, you're going to need access to rare and restricted equipment. And so on for every other archetype your system supports.

And this is wholly unsurprising, because it's a cooperative storytelling game, and the different archetypes are intended to be synergistic. The fact that a Rigger wants to have a Hacker or a Face on the team so much that he'd consider dabbling in those fields himself just to make sure there wasn't a hole in the team's capabilities is how things are supposed to work. The thing in SR5 where you can make a team of all mages and and bio-juicers and then just have everyone drop off of wireless and ignore enemy hackers entirely, that is a bug.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:24 pm

Yes, mundane hackers and riggers exist as separate archetypes in fiction. But it's a separation that only exists due to authorial intrusion -- like rogues and fighters or priests and warlocks being separate archetypes. Mech pilots aren't hackers because people don't regularly hack protagonist-ran vehicles in fiction.

Once you've shown a cutscene of Tony Stark hijacking Ivan's mecha drones or the Star Trek crew hacking into and overriding a Romulan Warbird or some throwaway character from The New Republic manually overriding and hacking AT-STs, that's it. Either all of the vehicle operators have to be hackers as well, they have some bullshit and arbitrary defense against hacking, vehicle operators have some sort of Special Magical Glow like in NGE or Final Fantasy 7 that give them mecha-based superpowers pure hackers can't access, or they're just the bitches of the hacker archetype.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:44 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Yes, mundane hackers and riggers exist as separate archetypes in fiction. But it's a separation that only exists due to authorial intrusion -- like rogues and fighters or priests and warlocks being separate archetypes. Mech pilots aren't hackers because people don't regularly hack protagonist-ran vehicles in fiction.

Once you've shown a cutscene of Tony Stark hijacking Ivan's mecha drones or the Star Trek crew hacking into and overriding a Romulan Warbird or some throwaway character from The New Republic manually overriding and hacking AT-STs, that's it. Either all of the vehicle operators have to be hackers as well, they have some bullshit and arbitrary defense against hacking, vehicle operators have some sort of Special Magical Glow like in NGE or Final Fantasy 7 that give them mecha-based superpowers pure hackers can't access, or they're just the bitches of the hacker archetype.

In a class-based system, you would be correct, but in a skill based system, you can hybridize into other archetypes, or specialize if someone on the team already has that ability.

So, a solo "rigger" would want to be able to hack to protect their mecha, but a rigger on a team could trust in the team hacker.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:50 pm

what ADVANTAGE does keeping Rigging and Hacking completely separate give us? Why NOT make them the Tech spellcasting/conjuring split?

We've got plenty of folks saying their iconic set of archetypes is Samurai/Mage/Tech-guy; why not go ahead and make that official?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:54 pm

So why wouldn't you just grab two dedicated hackers instead of a hacker and a rigger, then? Once you've thrown open the door to a hacker hijacking the President's electric car or causing a commander drone to self-destruct prematurely or mind controlling a mecha pilot through their cyberjack connection, you've pretty much de facto upgraded the hacker into a rigger. The rigger archetype can then only justify itself by putting up bullshit defenses and restrictions (hackers can hack the C&C server which gives the drones instructions but can't hack and control individual drones) or by giving it access to exclusive superpowers.

duo31 · Post by **duo31** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:18 pm

Riggers:
Reprise early editions and have riggers be mech pilots. They go back to being a subtype of Street Sam. They use drones to create versatility, but need to be physically riding a platform to get full use out of it. If they are remote piloting it, they open their equipment to being jammed / hacked also they take a dicepool penalty for 'lag' (or whatever). If they are controlling more than one drone, they split dice pools similar to dual wielding. If they are controlling a mini swarm, then the swarm can't take actions other than, go to waypoint, and relay data back to Rigger.

Mages:
Magic is an Attribute, and must be bought up, to a Natural Max of Essence. Initiation allows for Max to be Essence x 1.5 (round down). So usually 9 or 10 if Extraordinary Attribute Quality is bought.

Combat:
Combat is something everyone should be capable of. [full stop]
Three combat skills, Firearms, Heavy Weapons, and Close Combat

Misc
DNIs need to be essence free and ubiquitous, like given to infants along with circumcision common. If you want to hook up transmitter so that you can remote control stuff, you can do that, or you can just plug in a fiber optic cable. This means that just about anyone can be brain hacked GitS style, but without magic radiation beams that control your brain and somehow don't fry it in the process. But if DNI's and optic overlay exists, there is no reason to use antiquated interfaces like monitors and keyboards.

Spirits need to be able to be affected by mundanes, such that magicians are not required. Taking a page from Ghostbusters and Gargoyles, Spirits are creatures of Energy, and thus they can be disrupted by concentrated Energy. Mana spells, Lasers, EMPs, Proton-Paks.

Charms, Wards, and Cantrips, need to be something that anybody can use. If Mana is on the rise, then give people this shit already.

8 attributes plus 2 special ones is stupid, make it 6

Hacking needs to be more abstracted, fucking anyone and everyone should be able to use a computer in the future, bypassing biometric locks, or tumbler based ones, should just be part of the infiltrate skill.
Identifying a target should be line of sight, none of this analyzing icons bullshit. The Matrix is built on International Standards, your computer knows what is a fucking icon, and what it does. This shit should be automatic, these are computer systems designed to be used by more than one person.

Hackers, if they are to be a thing that exists, need to be able to go all Ratchet and Clank on Drones and Computer systems (ie identify and forcibly control them in a quick and simple 1-2 roll based manner).

-duo

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:35 pm

I'm curious, if Hackers/Riggers need to be separate archetypes based on the Rigger already being capable of taking part in all aspects of the mission (and this is a premise I generally agree with), why then does the default for the Mage need to be capable of both Summoning and Spellcasting? Either one of those capabilities is more than enough to contribute in basically every situation, it seems like splitting those up should be an even higher priority than splitting the Hacker/Rigger (since the Hacker at least gains a lot from the combination, because the Hacker archetype does lack things to do in many situations as it currently stands).

I keep harping on this, and magic versatility in general, because Magic is frankly a big and versatile enough concept that we could scrap the entire rest of the game (all non-magic archetypes) entirely, and still have a perfectly viable game with enough distinct archetypes to make up a full 6 person party. Treating "Mage" as a single archetype that encompases all of that is a big part of the problem, and isn't one that can just be ignored. Breaking "Mage" up into more archetypes would actually do a lot to address many of the Magicrun complaints.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:49 pm

OgreBattle wrote:Does R2D2 count as an iconic hacker character? He jacks his robo-tube into wall sockets and then problems are solved.

I think that makes him Robo-Kirk.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:52 pm

That leads to an even easier idea: have the 5 point quality Mind/Machine Interface (this allows you to purchase the Hacking and Rigging skill). The rigging skill is used to pilot vehicles and it's rating limits how many drones you can use at one time, the Hacking skill works like the Banishment skill used to, where it allowed you to take over other spirits, but instead it allows you to take over drones. What is a drone? Everything is a drone! Cars, tanks, airplanes, locks, toasters, and door knobs are all drones tirelessly connected at all times. Hacking allows you to use it in your personal drone network.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:05 pm

Hicks wrote:That leads to an even easier idea: have the 5 point quality Mind/Machine Interface (this allows you to purchase the Hacking and Rigging skill). The rigging skill is used to pilot vehicles and it's rating limits how many drones you can use at one time, the Hacking skill works like the Banishment skill used to, where it allowed you to take over other spirits, but instead it allows you to take over drones. What is a drone? Everything is a drone! Cars, tanks, airplanes, locks, toasters, and door knobs are all drones tirelessly connected at all times. Hacking allows you to use it in your personal drone network.

(Bold mine)
I think you need to have a restriction to prevent infinite subdivisions.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:21 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Korwin wrote:I really dont see the problem, rigging and hacking is tech stuff. Just a different specialisation.
Just like Conjuring and Spellcasting is magic stuff...
That is probably the dumbest possible way to look at something. You might as well be arguing that Street Samurai should all be Faces because it's all "physical stuff." It's just different skills, different attribute focuses, and different resource allocations. But other than that, it's exactly the same!

It's a skill based system that has soft rather than hard archetypes. If you want to play a Hacker/Street Sam or a Rigger/Face you are of course welcome to do that. You have to split your attributes, skills, and resources appropriately, but it can be done.

Korwin wrote: If you really want to seperate them, you could use the Aspected magician method. Only problem you dont need a quality to be an hacker and/or rigger (currently).

If we seperate magic qualities into

5GP Adeptpowers
5GP Spellcasting
5GP Summoning (and Astral Projection)
Enchanting?

Buy what you want to...
And did the same for hacking and rigging

5GP You are a Hacker and can automatically modify an comlink into an hacker tool (DNI included)
5GP You are able to rigg vehicles (DNI included)
5GP Technomancer stuff, you can do the same thing a hacker does with your mind
5GP Sprite stuff?
5GP you can rigg with your mind

Would that really be so bad/wrong?

FrankTrollman wrote:
Cyberzombie wrote:Hacking and rigging are synergistic because if you want to use drones effectively, you're going to want to prevent them from getting hacked.
Rigging and Ninjing are synergistic because if you want to use drones effectively, you're going to want to keep them from getting spotted by sentries or blown up with guns. Rigging and Facing are synergistic because if you want to use drones effectively, you're going to need access to rare and restricted equipment. And so on for every other archetype your system supports.

Rigging and Ninjing, yes if you use the same skill with your Body if you are using an drone (I do see the Argument for it, but it's not an shure Thing)
Rigging and Facing, not really. You dont need both skills at the same time. So its easily (if you want) outsourced to an specialist

FrankTrollman wrote: And this is wholly unsurprising, because it's a cooperative storytelling game, and the different archetypes are intended to be synergistic. The fact that a Rigger wants to have a Hacker or a Face on the team so much that he'd consider dabbling in those fields himself just to make sure there wasn't a hole in the team's capabilities is how things are supposed to work. The thing in SR5 where you can make a team of all mages and and bio-juicers and then just have everyone drop off of wireless and ignore enemy hackers entirely, that is a bug.

-Username17

Are we you (and Cyberzombie) arguing brainhack yes/no? If so, sorry for interrupting.
I'm arguing with brainhack active or not, rigging and hacking is allready highly synergistic. At least under SR4, where both want many of the same cyber-/bioware upgrade.
So why not be honest and make both an specialisation of the same tech-/skill tree.

RadiantPhoenix wrote: In a class-based system, you would be correct, but in a skill based system, you can hybridize into other archetypes, or specialize if someone on the team already has that ability.

So, a solo "rigger" would want to be able to hack to protect their mecha, but a rigger on a team could trust in the team hacker.

So either dont require the mage quality so everyone can branch out into magic, or require an quality to be an rigger and/or hacker.

Pixels · Post by **Pixels** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:27 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Can you name one piece of fiction where the overlap is total even in one direction?

In fact, I can. Stellvia's pilots are all at least competent programmers. There are programmers who are not pilots but there are no pilots who are not also programmers.

That's the only one that rises to mind though. There are a few other series that have hacker-riggers (Ghost in the Shell, for example), but those characters are the exceptions rather than the rule.