Quick Draw vs. Sleight of Hand

[CatharzGodfoot]

This has all been explained before, but I can't find the explanation and I can't figure it out.

Sleight Of Hand (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty)

Check
A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went.

When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check.

Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.

You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

See also: epic usages of Sleight Of Hand.
Sleight of Hand DCs Sleight of Hand DC Task
10 Palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear
20 Lift a small object from a person
Action

Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.
...

So I see a couple of issues here. The most important question is whether "drawing a hidden weapon" is a SoH check or a normal standard action. Because no check DC is given, it seems like it is the second. If this is the case, then there are two other cases that might cover drawing a weapon.

Stealing an item from another creature might be stretched to 'stealing an item from yourself'. There's a listed DC 20 check to actually get the item, plus an opposed check to determine if the target notices. What is important here is the DC 20 check. It becomes 40 to quick draw, and if you can't consistently make it then you can't consistently steal from yourself.

The second possibility is that hiding a weapon on your body is equivalent to drawing a weapon. To me that seems too much of a stretch, and so I'm stuck with the conclusion that 'quick sheath' requires a single rank of SoH, while quick draw requires the feat.

What am I missing here?


Prior literature:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=1418
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=19 ... highlight=
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=17908&start=25

[Edit] Found the relevant info:

How much clearer can the text get?

Well, for starters it could not be written in the fvcking skill description - where of course the default consideration is that everything described therein requires a skill check. For example, the quote:

Disabling a simple device takes 1 round and is a full-round action. An intricate or complex device requires 1d4 or 2d4 rounds.

in no way means that Disabling Devices doesn't require a skill check.

In fact, any action defined inside a skill description would normally be assumed to require a check of that skill unless stated otherwise.

The statement

Appraising an item takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions).

doesn't mean that you get to avoid the check.

And the statement

Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Doesn't mean that you can avoid the check either! It's in the skill description, and it doesn't say that you aren't making a skill check, so you're making a skill check. And the skill also says that you can speed up actions that use that skill check by taking a penalty.

-Username17

[/Edit]

[Hicks]

Though away from my books, I believe that drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action, as indicated in the skill description, but drawing a hidden weapon as a free action carries like a -10 or -20 modifier; the specific modifier is located in a table in the sleight of hand skill description. But the result of a sleight of hand check doesn't determine weather or not you successfully pull a greataxe from your pants, it is to set the Spot DC for others see you pull a greataxe out of your pants! Your total roll could be 1 (d20) + 1 (sleight of hand skill rank) - 5 (armor stealth penalty) - 2 (dex of 8) - 20 (doing so as a free action) = - 25. Your result is only for determing the Spot DC (which you don't care about in a heated combat) and you now have a Greataxe in your hands as a free action (which you do care about).

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Pretty much what Hicks said. However, I liked the simple fixes of "if you have +6 BAB, you have Quick Draw", and "all light weapons may be drawn as a free action".

The latter rule was for allowing the quick-draw of daggers, after seeing that darts (essentially the same object) could be quickdrawn.