Real Ultimate Power from Dual-Classing in a cRPG

[ThinkWriteMute]

So yeah, a ton more 2nd Edition games. This isn't even getting into bullshit spinoffs that so badly want to be 2nd edition but can't use the name, like Wizardry and Realms of Arkania.

A majority of those were not actually using the rulesset, but only taking minor things. Baulder's Gate I was the first successful rendition of the 2ed D&D rules, by popular acclaim.

Shadows of Amn and Heart of Winter, the expansion packs, were both 2e not 3.

They used 3.0 rules half the time, like spell progression/tier.

[PhoneLobster]

I tell you some people think PC gaming started when they first noticed it.

The gold box games damnit. Menzobaranzan, Ravenloft, Ravenloft 2, Darksun, Darksun 2, etc...

Hell you want to talk real ultimate dual classing power, the Darksun games are pretty much the prime example.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Do go on, PL.

[Sir Neil]

Pools of Darkness! Dual-classed ranger/mages could use platemail, composite longbows, and cast delayed blast fireballs to fvck up the red dragons or those bullshit armies of the undead.

[Kaelik]

They used 3.0 rules half the time, like spell progression/tier.

Dude. Baldur's Gate II was release September 26, 2000.

The 3.0 Players handbook was released October 11, 2000.

Is your theory that they went to the people making the edition like a year before it published and borrowed the advanced copy of the book just in order to make spell progressions?

Or maybe you are just wrong and full of shit.

It's a 2.0 game, using 2.0 rules, with 2.0 duration rules for spells and 2.0 spell progressions.

Icewind Dale II has a bunch of annoying 2.0 shit in it hybridized with mostly 3.0 rules. But seriously no goddam part of Baldur's Gate has shit to do with 3.0.

[Orion]

Is your theory that they went to the people making the edition like a year before it published and borrowed the advanced copy of the book just in order to make spell progressions?

Um, Kaelik? As far as I can tell that's exactly what happened.

Baldur's Gate II seriously contained Barbarian and Sorcerer as base classes. Barbarian was a base class in some earlier versions of D&D, but I'm pretty sure Sorcerer wasn't, and the BGII Barbarian had all the same features as the 3.0 version.

[PhoneLobster]

Do go on, PL.

Badlurs gate was NOT the beginning of D&D games on PC.

It was preceded by titles like these.

1E/Weird hybrid D&D
Wizardry series (like 7 or 8 games long)
Might & Magic /Xeen series (like again 7 or 8 games long, increasingly departed from "typical D&D")
Bards Tale series
Eye of the Beholder series

2E
Menzobaranzan/Ravenloft/Ravenloft 2 series
Al Quadim
Darksun/Darksun 2

and more

And some of those were pretty big name for their era.

AND frankly I'd play the Menzobaranzan "gold box" series over lame-o Baldurs Gate any day.

Not all those titles implemented Dual classing (at least to my knowledge) but of those that did...

Wizardry - Basically anyone could dual class into anything at pretty much any time as long as you met (fairly complex) base attribute requirements.

Level advancement eventually slowed to a crawl if you DIDN'T dual class.

Dual classing netted you new powers and known spells (old ones unavailable until you leveled up to same or better than you used to have). But more importantly netted you all sorts of HP and better you MP, and if you dualed into a class that had the same spells available you could totally just keep casting the old spells you knew anyway.

The sensible thing to do was to plan a career of dual classing through like a total of THREE classes PER character in the party of SIX damn characters. It made party building a pretty in depth afair to consider with a fair bit of cross referencing to the manual to determine required base attributes for your Fairy Rogue-Ninja-Alchemist-Bard-Ranger

Darksun
Was actually pretty faithful to 2E to the degree that you could be, and to the degree that I understood it in those days. I don't remember it too well so this is guessing a bit...

I have a vague feeling non-humans (or some of them) could also dual class (which I thought only humans are supposed to do) but may have had some class selection limitations in that regard.

The game was significantly easier if you did dual class. The sudden boost in rapid level advancement was pretty much required to keep on par with the game difficulty at a certain point.

Darksun 2 was even longer than 1 and I wouldn't be surprised if a second dual classing (if it was possible, I think it was...) would be a good idea. But my sister played that one more than I did.

Darksun 1 and 2 stick in my mind more because THEY were the games which pretty much explored and defined the graphical interface style that fucking Baldurs Gate used. You know, the whole kinda fake isometric 2d map thing.

Baldurs gate seriously brought about ZERO to the genre that the Darksun games didn't hammer out in depth already. And it was more boring, more drab and had more stupid messenger boy errand running back and forth like you were every damn peasants stupid fucking errand bitch.

Menzobaranzan+Ravenloft 1 & 2
I can't even remember if they had dual classing. But they were at least otherwise pretty much 2E D&D. Hell I think they may even have been TSR endorsed.

But I want to mention them because Baldurs Gate can FURTHER go sit on a sharpened splintery post and screw itself downwards. Travel and dungeon exploring was first person, less tedious, more action packed, even less buggy.

Fuck you Baldurs Gate and the extended era of walking back and forth across massive ugly boring maps you have already cleared of enemies passing messages back and forth between peasants for tiny XP bonuses and other shit I don't care about. And fuck that era of D&D games.

Torment, Baldurs Gate 1 again (some might call it 2... FOOLS), Never winter nights, I'M LOOKING AT YOU YOU ASSES

Icewindale 1 gets a minor pass for being mostly linear and monster packed so you rarely had any motivation to walk back and forth for ages running errands. Icewindale 1 again however I'm not so sure...

[Avoraciopoctules]

I remember those games. I still play Dark Sun and Genies Curse. Menzoberranzan was annoying in that it never installs right on my old games computer, but most of the 2E D&D computer games I played were very good. The clue books made for decent improvised dungeon providers as well. I hope that we get a decent 4E game at some point.

On the subject of 2E class optimization for computer games, I don't usually see much of a need for it when you can often legitimately set all your ability scores to max during chargen (not the Infinity Engine games, though. But they've got a cheat console.).

[ThinkWriteMute]

Edit: Ah fuck it, this is probably the stupidest conversation I could get in on here only to troll some 40 year old with a hard on for games made for robots (That's what I imagine anyhow, because no human would enjoy those GUIs) back in the god damn 90's.

Um, Kaelik? As far as I can tell that's exactly what happened.

Baldur's Gate II seriously contained Barbarian and Sorcerer as base classes. Barbarian was a base class in some earlier versions of D&D, but I'm pretty sure Sorcerer wasn't, and the BGII Barbarian had all the same features as the 3.0 version.

This.

This:

I tell you some people think PC gaming started when they first noticed it.

The gold box games damnit. Menzobaranzan, Ravenloft, Ravenloft 2, Darksun, Darksun 2, etc...

and this:

Badlurs gate was NOT the beginning of D&D games on PC.

make you look like a fucking dipshit when I said this:

Baulder's Gate I was the first successful rendition of the 2ed D&D rules

Hell, you even back up what I said:

.../Weird hybrid D&D
...
Not all those titles implemented Dual classing (at least to my knowledge) but of those that did...
...
Was actually pretty faithful to 2E to the degree that you could be, and to the degree that I understood it in those days. I don't remember it too well so this is guessing a bit...

when I suggest this:

A majority of those were not actually using the rules set, only taking minor things.

But please, continue your poorly worded nerd-rage. I'm sure mommy thinks you're unique.

[PhoneLobster]

Hey kid.

Maybe you should label your quotes so we have any idea what you are saying and who you are saying it about or to. As it is I vaguely suspect you have me and some of your other quote sources mixed up and your opening is... vague.

when I said this:

Baulder's Gate I was the first successful rendition of the 2ed D&D rules

So then the gold box games, eye of the beholder, might and magic, all those things and more.

They weren't "successful".

By what is most probably some yet to be defined and rather alarming definition of "successful" that you just made up.

Sure. You sound informed and intelligent. Sure.

Just because you were too busy sucking your mommies teets to play them doesn't mean they didn't exist and exist "successfully".

Ninja edit: and you now ninja edited to say "lols I is just trolling!" THAT automatically gets you on ignore and reported.

[ThinkWriteMute]

You are a moron with apparently no ability to use Google and are horrible at this whole internet fighting.

And that's terrible.

[Kaelik]

Phone Lobster, I don't know most of those games, but Might and Magic is not even fucking close to a actual 2e game using the 2e rules, so um... Are all your other games so definitely not a 2e game?

[PhoneLobster]

but Might and Magic is not even fucking close to a actual 2e game using the 2e rules

You'll note that it was on the 1e/weird hybrid list. Not the 2E list.

It predated 2e, and like everything that predates 2e is an amorphous mass of pseudo D&D, just like the rest of pre 2E is even in table top form.

Before 2E if it had fighters clerics and wizards, experience tables and attributes it was D&D. 2E brought a lot of standardization to the table in a way, and to CRPGs.

But even the "we aren't officially sanctioned TSR endorsed D&D" franchises like might and magic and wizardry adopted concepts from 2E. Which is why Wizardry for instance with its whole "D&D with the labels filed off for fun and avoidance of litigation" adopted things like multi classing mechanics that very much resembled 2E Dual Classing rules.

Now the actual games on the 2E list were quiet 2E. Though some were simplified or modified in various ways. The best example of 2E accuracy was... Darksun! which is the one relevant to the discussion due to its use of dual classing. And also highly relevant to Baldurs Gate because it actually implemented 2E with as much or maybe MORE accuracy than that piece of shit game did.

[K]

Is your theory that they went to the people making the edition like a year before it published and borrowed the advanced copy of the book just in order to make spell progressions?

Um, Kaelik? As far as I can tell that's exactly what happened.

Baldur's Gate II seriously contained Barbarian and Sorcerer as base classes. Barbarian was a base class in some earlier versions of D&D, but I'm pretty sure Sorcerer wasn't, and the BGII Barbarian had all the same features as the 3.0 version.

As far as I can recall, Sorcerer and Barbarian came in a patch that came later, and that patch was eventually included in newer versions of the game (like the Wild Mage that was eventually included for 2e fans since there was a Wild Mage NPC and people wanted it).

Of course, that was many years ago and I have done a lot of drinking since then.

[Aharon]

nope, they were in from the beginning. The only thing that came later was the Wild Mage. It was still 2nd ed (Thac0, negative AC good, strange saves), but the countdown to 3rd edition, with some previews, began in September 99 in Dragon 264. So I think it's definitely possible that they got information on what the monk, the sorcerer and the barbarian would look like and included them in BG II

[Lago PARANOIA]

So I've been looking at Darksun and Darksun2 for the PC, looks promising enough, however I have heard some pretty damning things about the series.

The first one is that Thri-Keen get more attacks than everyone. The other is that people don't really dual-class in that game?

WTF?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Thri-kreen get more attacks than anyone else, but mainly with their natural weapons. If you want a good fighter, half-giants are where it's at. In fact, I sometimes refer to the number of half-giant gladiators in your party as the secondary difficulty slider.

In addition to having better stat modifiers for melee combat, half giants have their hit points doubled and I think they might get their damage doubled too. Assuming you just set all your ability scores to the max possible (which is explicitly allowed in chargen), your half-giant will soon reach the point where it can kill 8 enemy soldiers a round if dual-wielding and affected by Haste.

You can dual-class in the Dark Sun games, but since there's already an XP cap in place, humans aren't really all that awesome. If you want to breeze through the game, take 2 half-giant gladiators, 1 elven fighter/preserver/thief (for talking, doing stereotypical rogue work, battlefield control, and Haste. ), and one halfling fighter/cleric. In the early game, anything that looks tough is made much easier by slowing it down and shooting it full of arrows and slingstones.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

As to a previous question about why you would multiclass?

Okay, leveling is very quick in the beginning and much slower later on. Multiclassing lets you gain many levels in several classes quickly.

Fighter is always a good choice to multiclass with because you get to wear armor, get higher strength (for more damage), and more hitpoints.

So for any multiclass you want to do, it should always include Fighter (same with Dual-class, always start Fighter First).

My favorite Multiclass is Fighter/Mage/Cleric because I can hit just as well as any other Fighter, be self-sufficient with my healing, and can take advantage of Mage Buffs and Fun Spells outside of battle (or inside of battle when I have equipment that trumps wearing armor).

Another Fun one (as K mentioned) is Fighter/Mage/Thief.

Ironically, Fighter/Thieves are better than regular thieves due to their High Strength and Weapon Specialization and the fact that eventually your skills max out, so the point of continuing being a thief has expired.

[Username17]

Ironically, Fighter/Thieves are better than regular thieves due to their High Strength and Weapon Specialization and the fact that eventually your skills max out, so the point of continuing being a thief has expired.

Beyond that even. Being a Fighter gives you a bigger base damage. Being a Thief gives you a damage multiplier that goes up a you level.

Eventually it becomes a better deal to increase the base number than it does to increase the multiplier. 4 x 5 is bigger than 5 x 3 and all that noise. So in the long run, being a Fighter/Thief actually makes you better at being a Thief than being a straight Thief does.

Still doesn't make Multiclass even a tenth as good as Dual classing though. Every XP you send towards Fighter after level 7 is an XP you can never get back.

-Username17

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Well this also depends on the books your 2nd ed. AD&D allows. If you had the Fighter's Handbook or Combat & Tactics, you could get Weapon Mastery which required you being higher than level 10.

A second thing to understand is that Fighters give 3hp per level while Thieves and Clerics give 2 hp per level and Wizards 1 hp per level after 9th level or about. So continuing to give xp to fighter increases your overall hp.

And I agree with you that long-term Dual-Classing is better for the straight fact that you can make Fighter40/Cleric40/Wizard40/Thief40/Ranger40/Paladin40/etc...

However most campaigns don't last that long and the benefits of being a Fighter/Thief or a Fighter/Cleric can often be very comparable to Dual Class Fighter2/Cleric x or Fighter 7/Cleric x etc.

[Starmaker]

So I've been looking at Darksun and Darksun2 for the PC, looks promising enough, however I have heard some pretty damning things about the series.

The most damning thing is that the games are buggy (scripts won't trigger), especially DS2, and as they're not as popular as BG, no fixes that I know of exist, so save early and often. The second-biggest disappointment is that lack of food and water does not come into play at all.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Firstly:

I thought XP caps didn't mean jack if you're dual-classed; once you get retroactively paid back for all your abilities it's free money (a DC Fighter 7/Mage 8 has as much XP as a Mage 8), unlike multi-classing where you never get reimbursed.

Secondly:

I thought damage bonuses in AD&D were lower; while people wouldn't wipe their ass with a 1d4+6 natural attack in 3E, in 2E that's a pretty hefty chunk of hit points.


Thirdly:

How do buffs work in the Dark Sun video game? Does being a DC Fighter 7 / Psionicist or Mage or Cleric X give you more combat asswhuppery than a DC Fighter 7 / Thief X?


Fourthly:

Is the fighter strength bonus that big of a deal in these games? It always seemed like a waste if you could finagle yourself a way to get 19 strength.

Fifthly:

Are there any good dual class combinations besides Fighter 2 / Whatever or Fighter 7 / Whatever?

[hogarth]

Fourthly:

Is the fighter strength bonus that big of a deal in these games? It always seemed like a waste if you could finagle yourself a way to get 19 strength.

From my experience, you can't usually finagle 19 Strength for everyone in your party. So if one PC has good natural Str, you can save the girdle of giant strength for one of your weaker NPC fighters (say).

[Avoraciopoctules]

The most damning thing is that the games are buggy (scripts won't trigger), especially DS2, and as they're not as popular as BG, no fixes that I know of exist, so save early and often. The second-biggest disappointment is that lack of food and water does not come into play at all.

There are some patches floating around: http://www.patches-scrolls.de/
If you use the search box (left side of the window and down a bit), you can get various versions of the 1.1 / 1.10 patch.

Not much that can be done about lack of any need to eat or drink, though. You do face some encouragement to rest, at least. Of course, this is extremely exploitable when you have spells that obscure line of sight.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Firstly:

I thought XP caps didn't mean jack if you're dual-classed; once you get retroactively paid back for all your abilities it's free money (a DC Fighter 7/Mage 8 has as much XP as a Mage 8), unlike multi-classing where you never get reimbursed.

Which XP caps are you referring to? In AD&D there were level caps, meaning that if you were a non-human non-thief you had a level limit in the class you chose (except Half-Elven Bards).

XP caps came into play with Baldur's gate, and yes it took into account Dual-Class previous class XP

Secondly:

I thought damage bonuses in AD&D were lower; while people wouldn't wipe their ass with a 1d4+6 natural attack in 3E, in 2E that's a pretty hefty chunk of hit points.

Yes, damage bonuses were much lower that's why having a high strength and exceptional strength from Dual and Multiclass and weapon specialization damage bonuses means a lot.

Fourthly:

Is the fighter strength bonus that big of a deal in these games? It always seemed like a waste if you could finagle yourself a way to get 19 strength.

Having a high strength is never a waste. It makes the early game much easier and more enjoyable. If you come across a Tome or Gauntlets you can always give it to another party member, or use your glove slot for another item.

Fifthly:

Are there any good dual class combinations besides Fighter 2 / Whatever or Fighter 7 / Whatever?

Sure,

Fighter 40/Thief
Fighter 40/Mage
Fighter 40/Cleric
Fighter 40/Druid
Fighter 40/Bard
Fighter 40/Illusionist

Paladin 40/Thief
Paladin 40/Mage
Paladin 40/Cleric
Paladin 40/Bard
Paladin 40/Illusionist

Ranger 40/Thief
Ranger 40/Mage
Ranger 40/Cleric
Ranger 40/Druid
Ranger 40/Bard
Ranger 40/Illusionist

You pretty much always want your first class to be a Fighter-type to get maximum hp and high strength potential.