New Edition: Monsters

[Username17]

In order to make a game playable, there should be at least sufficient character archetypes that people can pick up and play. Customizability is nice, but it's actually a secondary concern to approachability of the game. And the creation and balancing of these archetypes requires the existence of challenges for them to be balanced against. So that we can put them up against a same game challenge at each level and get meaningful results.

Which means that creating the first 10 levels of play is done in the following order:

1. Design a series of challenges for 1st through 10th level characters.
   
2. Design a set of character classes which can best those challenges up to that level.
   
3. Infill character options that those sample characters didn't take which can substitute across for the abilities they did take.
   
4. Add extra challenges balanced against the characters you are running.

So, what kind of challenges are there? In my mind, there are four:

• NPCs - AKA the mirror match. This is where you fight something which is the equivalent of a player character. Ideally you should beat it half the time as quite often it is literally just your character with the serial numbers rubbed off. This category includes character equivalent monsters (like Giants and Fairies), and in any case we'll save it for the end.
  
  
• Monsters - This is where you fight something like Giant Spider or a Basilisk or something. It's relatively simple (throws webs or stone gazes), but it's numerically on par with the PCs. Ideally, PCs should have a slight edge here.
  
  
• Closet Trolls - AKA the "Puzzle Monster." This is where you fight something which is actually numerically superior to you, but tactically inferior. Basically, this is a monster which you are supposed to Tekken Juggle or take to the air or something to beat. Characters of this level should have numbers which are insufficient to break it head-to-head and have abilties sufficient to shut it down.
  
  
• Swarms - This is where you fight large numbers of rats or giant worms or skeletons or something. These are an interesting case, because while these creatures should have attack bonuses and Armor Classes which are on-par with the PCs of their level, their damage output and hit points should be much lower. And these are the creatures that you summon and animate.
  
  
• Puzzles - This is a quest impediment which requires abilities of an appropriate level to bypass. It can be anything from a moat of lava to an iron door. These things should be around in level appropriate areas and character classes should come with abilities that will address these issues.
  
  
• Brutes - These are dangerous seeming monsters which take a lot of punishment and do a lot of damage. They have attack bonuses and Armor Classes which are low for their level, but have hit points and damage thresholds beyond what players normally see. They are of primary interest because these are creatures which are optimized to take out very large numbers of lower level opponents, which makes them good minor quest targets.
  
  
• Boss Monsters - These are monsters which have normal Armor Classes and Attack Bonuses, but stupid huge piles of hit points and probably a wider ability selection than normal. What this means is that battles against them take a long time and require the party to work together to take them down.

So in order of design priority, you'd want to choose the puzzles first, the swarms second, the closet trolls third, the monsters fourth, the Brutes fifth, then the Player Character Classes, and then fill in the Boss Monsters and the NPCs.

So priority one: Puzzles

Characters walk in at a level, and the adventure locale is filled with... what?

-Username17

[Crissa]

I would like the paradigm that if a player-party doesn't have a level appropriate movement ability - they can purchase it.

On one hand, I want to reduce the need for the NPC cleric. But on the other hand, I don't mind them hiring a specific [color] mage to [fill in the blank]. Or getting an artifact.

And there should be differences which are inherent in the game system, and made obvious by the rules: A river of lava is impossible/difficult/trivial to cross, for instance.

Once we gain flying as transportation - and individual flying can come earlier - that means rivers of lava are trivial, unless ground effects also come with write-ups for air effects. And that would probably be a good thing: So a river of lava also comes with 'difficult' air terrain, or flying cinders, or somesuch so that it is more detailed mechanically than merely being impossible to wade/walk upon.

-Crissa

[PhoneLobster]

Why should the lava be impossible to walk upon.

While everyone else is flying over it or avoiding it I want my fire wizard to be standing on the stuff maniacally laughing and going the fisticuffs with a salamander.

A more detailed lava obstacle isn't just messing with flying critters, its giving you other options as well.

And fire resistance should totally trump pansy forces of nature obstacles.

[Username17]

I agree. Terrain effects should be dynamic with multiple presentable solutions. The quandary is at what level should those multiple solutions be available and for which terrain effects?

If there was a moat of lava, at what level do you think players should be able to bypass it with difficulty and at what level do you think it should be a trivial detail?

-Username17

[Fwib]

With difficulty: Level 1 with ingenuity - cool surface with create water and run across, or throw unhinged dungeon doors on it and run across, or a whole load of dirt, etc etc.

(of course, it is it _really_ hot and low-viscosity, those may well not work)

Trivially: Water-walking and fire resistance.

[edit] Might a lava-moat be best deployed only as life-support for your guardian [fire] creatures?

[PhoneLobster]

If there was a moat of lava, at what level do you think players should be able to bypass it with difficulty and at what level do you think it should be a trivial detail?

The easy answer is "at some level as long as it happens".

Though perhaps more accurately if I was playing a fire wizard I would expect to be able to throw down a partially effective fire resistance and get through with partial scorching if desperate starting from a rather low level. If not right out of the gate.

And would expect to be able to laugh the stuff off without a second thought right about the same time that there are lower level fire monsters that I'm ploughing through with similar ease. (so about the same time I can strangle a Lava Imp)

[CatharzGodfoot]

The neat thing about puzzles is that given the time and resources, anyone can beat them regardless of level. The difficulty lies in doing it quickly.


A bit of water can make for a good low-level puzzle:

A broad, quickly flowing river.

A cave entrance half-filled with water, which requires the characters to hold their breath as they swim to the second half (or that they blast through ~500' of solid stone). Remember that's it's pitch black unless the characters have an underwater light source.

A cave entrance half-filled with water, and with aggressive giant (8") glass knife fish swarms.

[Username17]

1198366854[/unixtime]]With difficulty: Level 1 with ingenuity - cool surface with create water and run across, or throw unhinged dungeon doors on it and run across, or a whole load of dirt, etc etc.

(of course, it is it _really_ hot and low-viscosity, those may well not work)

Trivially: Water-walking and fire resistance.

[edit] Might a lava-moat be best deployed only as life-support for your guardian [fire] creatures?

Since this is a question regarding a complete overhal, the question is at which levels should these be regarded as standard?

As characters go up in level, all kinds of things will go from Insurmountable to Difficult to Trivial and eventually all the way to simple Scenery. These can be abreviated as I, D, T, S. So what levels would you want for:

• A 6 meter cliff.
  
• A 60 meter sheer cliff.
  
• A moat of Lava.
  
• A wall of Fire
  
• A wall of Twisting Thorns.
  
• A "Rune of Death"
  
• A caustic ooze creature
  
• 60 kilometers of trackless swamp
  
• A raging river
  
• A roiling Sandstorm
  
• A pit trap filled with spikes
  
• An Avalanche
  
• The frozen wastes of Cocytos

-Username17

[Crissa]

I'm not sure I want any difference between Trivial and Scenery.

And on that - I think you're missing some obstacles like 'trackable wasteland' and 'untrackable wasteland' as well as 'London' and 'Santa Cruz'. Not necessarily in that order.

I don't mind if level 1 characters might have trouble finding an address in London.

-Crissa

[angelfromanotherpin]

These are the levels at which I think something should be Difficult.

• A 6 meter cliff: Level 1
  
• A 60 meter sheer cliff: Level 4
  
• A moat of Lava: Level 6
  
• A wall of Fire: Level 8
  
• A wall of Twisting Thorns: Level 7
  
• A "Rune of Death": Level 9
  
• A caustic ooze creature: Level 7
  
• 60 kilometers of trackless swamp: Level 5
  
• A raging river: Level 2
  
• A roiling Sandstorm: Level 5
  
• A pit trap filled with spikes: Level 3
  
• An Avalanche: Level 5
  
• The frozen wastes of Cocytos: Level 11

[virgil]

I can see wanting a difference between trivial and scenery. At the trivial stage, you still need to put in effort (even if it's just you saying "I put in effort"), and getting caught with your pants down means it still hurts you. At the scenery stage, you could be knocked out and waking up in it won't terribly hinder you.

I don't know about levels, but the below is what I'd like to see in, in ascending difficulty.

A 6 meter cliff
A 60 meter sheer cliff
A pit trap filled with spikes
A raging river
A caustic ooze creature
60km of trackless swamp: For surviving a trek through
A roiling sandstorm
A moat of lava
An avalanche: The ounce-of-prevention approach
- Reliable flight is probably starting here, either that or short-range LoS teleportation
A wall of twisting thorns
A wall of fire
A 'rune of death'
60km of trackless swamp: For tracking someone through it
An avalanche: The heads-on approach
The frozen wastes of Cocytus

Looking at this list, it seems that I'm the type that puts a high value on long-range teleportation (of the non-plot device variety). This means that once the frozen wastes become trivial, then long range teleportation by PCs has come online.

[the_taken]

* A 6 meter cliff. Lvl1 is Dififcult
* A 60 meter sheer cliff. Lvl1 I, lvl 4 D, lvl 6 T, Lvl 10 S
* A moat of Lava. Lvl 6 D, Lvl21 S
* A wall of Fire Lvl 18 T
* A wall of Twisting Thorns Lvl 10 D, Lvl21 S
* A "Rune of Death" Lvl 10 I Lvl 11 D Lvl 28 S
* A caustic ooze creature Lvl 6 I, Lvl 8 D, Lvl 12 T
* 60 kilometers of trackless swamp Lvl 1 D, Lvl 10 T, Lvl 20 S
* A raging river Lvl 4 I, lvl 6 D, Lvl 10 S
* A roiling Sandstorm, lvl 1 I, Lvl 4-9 D Lvl 10 S
* A pit trap filled with spikes Lvl 2 I, Lvl 3 D, Lvl 10 T
* An Avalanche Lvl 4 I, Lvl 8 D, Lvl 10 S if prepared, Lvl 18 T, Lvl22 S
* The frozen wastes of Cocytos Lvl I, Lvl 8 D, Lvl 21 S

I'm imagining that everyone get's overland flight at lvl10, but walking is often a greater tactical benefit in dungeons up to close to the end game.

[Koumei]

Well, I'll give it a try. Assuming 30 levels for the 3 colours each thing:

* A 6 meter cliff.
I 1, D 2-3, T 4-7, S 8+
It's not even that far to fall, and could conceivably have things to hold onto and all that. Depending on whether it's the "smooth edged" kind where you just fall and die or the kind people can climb, it might never be Insurmountable.

* A 60 meter sheer cliff.
I 1-3, D -, T 4-7, S 8+
This will kill you if you just jump, and sounds like it can't be climbed, but at level 4-ish people should have flight or at least slow-fall and wall-climbing powers. It never actually becomes Difficult, it either kills you to fall down, or isn't an issue.

* A moat of Lava.
I 1-3, D 4-6, T 7-8, S 9+
At levels 1-3, it will kill you if you try to cross it. Maybe a fire mage will be able to throw up a resistance and get past it with only a Wound or two, maybe the party throws stuff onto it until they can cross, but that takes a long time. After that, fire resistance becomes easier to get, and people can make bridges or glide, but the heat will still hurt them a bit. Even flying over, unless we're talking proper "50' up" flight, will have some difficulty. Especially if it's Mario lava, and can launch fireballs.

* A wall of Fire
I 1-5, D 6-7, T 8-10, S 11+
Okay, so at lower levels, it might even incinerate you just for getting near it. Or rather, you black out from the heat, then slowly roast. Walking through it incinerates you. Later on, you can get super-jump abilities but still take damage from the heat and risk blacking out mid-jump. Maybe this wall of flame can change height or launch fireballs up like lava pools in Mario. But you begin to pack fire resistance, or can dispel it or at least cast "Subdue Flames" or whatever to make it bearable. Maybe you just burrow underneath it or something. At 11+ you can teleport or throw up fire immunity or something.

* A wall of Twisting Thorns.
This is about the same as the wall of fire, except probably a little lower. After all, you can burn these, or hack through them, even if they're animated (and of course they are). So they'll try to stab you, but you can also kill them.

* A "Rune of Death"
I 1-5, D 6-8, T 9-15, S 16+
At low levels, you can't get around them, and such a rune will kill you on the spot. Later on, you can deactivate them with difficulty by knowing what parts to scratch out without activating them. Likewise you can begin to resist the magic, or just burrow around them or whatever. Later on, short-range teleport effects should be available (I see no problem with short-range teleportation in game. It's long-range that causes trouble).

* A caustic ooze creature
I 1-5, D 6-8, T 9-10, S 11+
Low level characters get eaten if they approach. Higher level characters can begin to actually kill it with the spells/weapons needed, or can find ways to get past it or resist the acid damage.

* 60 kilometers of trackless swamp
It's... swamp. Seriously. Not including monsters, the dangers are *possibly* drowning, starvation or thirst. Yes, the characters might get lost. If they can't fly, it'll suck, they will likely lose whatever they're chasing, and they'll be wandering for a few days, possibly needing to make a save against Disease.

* A raging river
Sort of like the lava, except lower. After all, you can safely get near it and fly over it at lower heights, however if you get caught in it, you are still likely to get dragged to your death unless you're an expert swimmer. Like, a Siren or ocean mage.

* A roiling Sandstorm
Well, it can make it easy for characters to get lost - not only separating them during the storm and causing them to lose what they're chasing, but also, once it's finished, they might have no idea where they are and which way to go. Likewise, it can be used to allow things to leap out from hiding places, but that is more an ability of the things that are hiding. Possibly it deals damage by dint of constantly scouring them.

* A pit trap filled with spikes
At any level, a jump check or using a door as a bridge should suffice. So it becomes trivial very quickly.

* An Avalanche
This should kill/bury a huge amount of very low level people. But at levels 5 and above, it's just a matter of climbing out (or melting it) after taking some cold damage. Eventually there's flight and huge-scale warming magic.

* The frozen wastes of Cocytos
Never been there, so I couldn't say.

[virgil]

*The frozen wastes of Cocytos
Never been there, so I couldn't say.

He speaks of the banks of one of the rivers of Hades. Though I suppose if you go all Dante in it, which it sounds like he is if it's frozen, then it's a frozen lake in the ninth layer of Hell; where Satan himself keeps it cold by flapping his wings while his tears refill it of any water.

[CatharzGodfoot]

IMO very low levels should have the characters with very mundane abilities. Maybe you can animate a few zombies or shoot bolts of fire, but you can't fly, you aren't heavily resistant to any damage types (I'm assuming this system won't offer immunity), and you're pretty much stuck using mundane means to get around obstacles (no walking on water). Maybe just for first level, but I think that should be an option.

I'd like to see separate time and danger axis for puzzles as well.

[virgil]

I would hope so. Granted, having a mundane way of overcoming an obstacle is still having a way to overcome an obstacle. You don't need to design particularly fancy moves to deal with a 6 metre cliff, because rope does the same thing. Once you do have a fancy way of dealing with it, that's just you changing the difficulty to trivial.

[NoDot]

I'm not sure which is the cart and which is the horse here, but another thing to think about in this is: What are the levels of realism-that is, which levels simulate realistic activities? According to the link in my sig, 3.5 has that at levels five and less. For this hypothetical system, what are roughly the levels which simulate realistic human abilities?

Also, what is the power gain per level-that is, how valuable is gaining a new level? Is it "two CR for double power," or something else?

Again, I'm not sure which is the cart and which is the horse, but these are worth mentioning.

[Username17]

That's very horsetastic. The key with the puzzles is that they, much more so than the monsters, dictate how "powerful" a character seems. The fact that you can kill a dragon, or a manticore, or a demon, or whatever does not by itself prove anything. After all, who is to say that a manticore is actually any tougher than a leopard? And leopards can be killed by by 73 year old men.

So when you contrast the players with a basilisk you've got two data points: the strength of the character and the strength of the basilisk. Since both are unknowns, the statement "A basilisk is a 7th level monsters" (or whatever) really tells us nothing at all.

----

Now as for for numeric power assignments, I would like characters to get a bonus equal to their level to attacks and Armor classes. Furthermore, I figure people are entitled to pick up a number of (fixed) bonuses in the range of about +3 and get them every three or four levels. Meaning that on average you're looking at characters basically adding double the difference in levels between them and an opponent to attack and defense. Leaving aside the question of varying effect and wound thresholds (which will make it even starker), that means that a creature 5 levels down comes in hordes or not at all, and that a creature 10 levels lower need not apply.

If that's too steep, one could gut the rate at which non-level bonuses are accumulated in half and have people basically reduce enemies to horde monsters in 6 levels and completely invalidate them in 13.

That question is really one of how many times in your life do you want outgrow a monster type?

-Username17

[Koumei]

I like that idea. 5 levels down and they charge in groups of 10 for good old Dynasty Warriors action. Because you'd only kill about 10 people at a time in that, even if the level total was in the 500-1000 range.

And I'd say that 5th should be the latestpoint where you stop being normal people who are scared of things the real world can offer. At 5-6, you should be handed your "Welcome to the Awesome club." card, and have it explained to you that while you could take over the city, it's considered impolite to do so.

Because I hate the real world, and the quicker the game gets into Awesome territory, the happier I am.

[NoDot]

The lower the threshold for breaking reality, the more linear the power curve from levels needs to be. If you need to be the greatest of the great by our standards to be level three, then by level twenty you have DBZ, probably.

I'd say levels five to seven are good for people who who want to play at realistic levels, particularly in we get level one to be the equivalent to level three in 3.5-that is, people like CEOs, good doctors (not House-he's higher level), and Master's Degree holders. This strips most of the world of its class levels, but that probably doesn't matter.

This gives us up through levels ten or twelve to play around with superhumans and action movie physics. I figure that after that, you should go plane-hopping. Things can end at level fifteen or twenty, depending on where reality ends.

[Username17]

1198410686[/unixtime]]
And I'd say that 5th should be the latestpoint where you stop being normal people who are scared of things the real world can offer. At 5-6, you should be handed your "Welcome to the Awesome club." card, and have it explained to you that while you could take over the city, it's considered impolite to do so.

That is another set of questions that is intimately related.

• At what level should you be able to conquer the local village?
  
• At what level should you no longer give a damn about conquering the village?
  
• At what level should you be able to conquer the kingdom?
  
• At what level should you no longer give a damn about conquering the kingdom?

There's a built in excuse of course. With civilization staying mostly far away from the mana upwellings (on account of those upwellings creating rocs and fantasmal monsters and crap); conquering the village or even the entire kingdom stops mattering much as soon as you're looking for "rare drops" from power sites.


Which basically goes into the Economies. I would just assume never have a wish economy. However, unless we go with a modern or near-modern money base, the universe is going to be set on barter of some kind. And that neatly segregates the universe into strata of giving a damn.

• Turnips - you are trading for stuff that is made by and for people are legitimately unsure of whether they will survive the winter because of food supply issues. This probably precludes getting siege engines or fine art or the like.
  
• Gold - you are trading for stuff made by and for people who have a surplus and looking to trade that surplus for other things. At this point people think about things like luxuries, craftsmanship, and comparative advantage. This is where you see classic specialists and artists.
  
• Magic - This is where things get weird and a-historical. There are rampaging Chimera who can only be defeated by mighty champions and there are one-off pieces of equipment which can help those mighty champions best monsters. So there's a whole separate economy in items that these people need to do their jobs that people who don't have that job can't really participate in at all.
  
• Other Economies? - Once you posit "magic" you can go off into crazy town, you could seriously have an "Epic" economy, or a "Post-Scarcity Wish Economy" for very powerful champions to participate in. Where they barter around stuff that lesser characters can't even conceive of. Or not. You could have the basic Magic Economy stop right there.

So power sites produce magic gems which do... stuff. You can also use them as currency in your magic economy. At what level should you be able to stop hiding that you have the magic gems and start openly buying and selling them?

And for that matter, do we want characters to go through a period where they aren't strong enough to risk flashing Gold around? It would be plausible to force characters to run around with basic tools and bartering with cabbages for first level or even several levels.

-Username17

[NoDot]

1198433958[/unixtime]]That is another set of questions that is intimately related.

• At what level should you be able to conquer the local village?
  
• At what level should you no longer give a damn about conquering the village?
  
• At what level should you be able to conquer the kingdom?
  
• At what level should you no longer give a damn about conquering the kingdom?

In terms of Magnificent Humans (i.e., the last level with simulate actual human ability):

• When you're twice the power of a Magnificent Human
  
• Half-way between twice the power of a Magnificent Human and thrice the power of a Magnificent Human
  
• By brute force, four times the power of a Magnificent Human; by defeating the current ruler, five times the power of a Magnificent Human
  
• When you go plane-hopping

Also, Wish is good for plane-hoppers, but shouldn't be available before then.

[RandomCasualty]

Well as far as puzzles, generally unlike monsters, they're traversed with abilities rather than pure numbers.

And terrain of itself isn't really much of a puzzle, unless there's something special about it.

A rickety bridge crossing a lava pit might be a challenge, but a standalone lava pit probably isn't. Because the lava is something you can either fly, resist or jump over, or you can't. And that's not really a challenge, that's just a possibility of an impassable barrier.

Similarly I'm not really sure how to rate wilderness terrain. How is the swamp actually hurting you? Is it just a matter of getting lost or are there sinkholes along the way or what?

Getting lost, much like the lava pit, would end up being a yes/no obstacle. Either you get hopelessly lost in the swamp or you've got something like find the path that helps you along. In either case, it's not really much of a challenge, more like just a speed bump.

[angelfromanotherpin]

• At what level should you be able to conquer the local village? 5th
  
• At what level should you no longer give a damn about conquering the village? 7th
  
• At what level should you be able to conquer the kingdom? 11th.
  
• At what level should you no longer give a damn about conquering the kingdom? 13th

Those are for individual characters who can personally walk in past the armed resistance and coup the place. Parties of 4-6 characters should be able to do it a level or two sooner.

As to how many times I'd like to outgrow a monster: 4 times at most, over the course of a 1-20 run.

At what level should you be able to stop hiding that you have the magic gems and start openly buying and selling them?

And for that matter, do we want characters to go through a period where they aren't strong enough to risk flashing Gold around? It would be plausible to force characters to run around with basic tools and bartering with cabbages for first level or even several levels.

I think the magic gem trading starts at about 11th. I think characters can operate in the Turnip economy from 1st-3rd level, assuming that 1st level is a plucky goblin-fooling youth and 3rd level is a competent rank-and-file soldier.

[virgil]

It's hard for me to put a level expectation on these things. Are we sticking with the 20 level range? And what do we want level 20 people to do? Obviously at level 20 you no longer care about conquering a kingdom and have been plane-hopping awhile, but how much higher than that are you? Is level 20 the point where Hephæstos loans you his tongs (still quite a bit better, but he needs to actually pay attention), or are you setting up a competing smithy across the street?

I agree with NoDot that you need to be about twice as good as a Magnificent Human in order to conquer a village (and actually care).

If you can literally fight the entire village (a village being a mess o' typical humans) and win, then you no longer give a damn about doing it.

I'm assuming that within a kingdom, then a member of the Order of the Frozen Light is someone who no longer gives a damn about conquering a village. Once you can a mess of them and win, then you no longer care about conquering the kingdom.