TNE: Skills?

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angelfromanotherpin
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TNE: Skills?

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

FrankTrollman wrote:we have the Paladin as our Might class, who operates with Wisdom and Charisma based attacks. He fights with a sword and a shield, but he is focused on mental stats. And that's fine. It means that he notices things and gets the princess, which is where we want our heroic knight to be.


So, I'm wondering what this part of TNE is going to look like. How many skills are there? What are they? How many do people get? What's the mechanism for using them? How does social activity work? etc. etc.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Username17 »

There's a couple of nested questions here. The first of course is to what extent a leveled character can be thwarted by mundane tasks and defeated by minor characters. Things to keep in mind:
  • A level bonus rapidly outpaces differences in attributes. A best case stat modifier is a +9 and a worst case is a +4. So if level bonuses are involved, a character five levels up has basically no need for the services of a specialist five levels down save as a source of teamwork bonuses.

  • An optional level bonus is inherently divergent. That is, if you can either add your level or not to a skill you will rapidly depart the RNG.

  • Having powerful adventurers pick pocketed by gutter rats is not necessarily bad.

  • Powerful characters should be able to do stupid shit like plowing fields before lunch, manning a ship by themselves, and forging siege engines of awesome power.

  • If you can only learn languages after gaining a level, you might as well not be able to do it at all, because you won't gain a level until you conquer Mount Chaining, and then you won't be dealing with the Leopard Tribe anyway.


So what does that all mean?

It means that we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you give people spendable ranks they will go off the RNG with each other. If you give everyone a Level bonus to throw around, the players have no use for low level sages and can't be harassed by child thieves. And if you don't give either of those things, players won't be getting nice stuff when they go up in level.

---

My thoughts on the subject are many. The first is that ranks in skills should be extremely finite. Like probably between one and five ranks total. Possibly Untrained, Trained, and Expert. Different races might also have different lists of no-default skills, which would be interesting and add depth to the races.

The other thing I'm thinking is that characters should probably pick up skill ranks to throw around independently of gaining power levels.

Untrained: +Stat Modifier
Trained: +Stat Modifier + 5
Expert: +Stat Modifier + 10
?

---

Sociality is a separate thing. And I think that it should be more... big. Like seriously I think that there should be overall Diplomatic Position Scores which are influenced by winning battles against foes.

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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

With a non-scaling skills option, how do we determine which abilities should be considered "skills"? What happens when you have a level-based ability that does the same thing as a level-independent skill?


I could also see using 1d6 + Attribute bonus.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by virgil »

What about how Star Wars Saga attempted to handle skills, barring the whole tying skill checks to saves and the level bonus being handed out to everybody? Although they did give such a slow level bonus that it took 10 levels for an untrained character to be equal to a trained character.

Some skills have extra options just for being trained, a fair number (but not all) of races that are good at a skill just get a free reroll instead of a bonus.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Bigode »

Aside from the SAGA slow progressions, what'd be the problem with making saves BE skills (with the level-based progression idea, I mean)?
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by SunTzuWarmaster »

I like how 4th edition is doing it from what I've seen so far. My impression is this:

There are X number of categories for skills | X<10
You get Y per level based on class | Y < 6
(add level, always)

Then set DCs so that DC (pickpocket character is 10+level+ranks against the opposed roll) where attacker always has advantage.

However, I also like the way we play it, where you can invest up to half of max ranks for a cross-class skill (so the wizard can actually invest in Escape Artist and Ride).
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

It sounds like we need two different kinds of skills:

Combat skills. This is stuff like stealth, perception, ride, and anything else where you only really need to make checks when you're playing the combat mini-game. These should operate in sync with the combat system, and scale up the same way character's regular attack and defense values scale.

Non-combat skills. Stuff like craft, appraise, speak language, pick pockets, etc. These could be independent of character level, and have a completely different system than the one we're using for combat. Maybe even a return to something more like 2e's non-weapon proficiencies, but less terrible?
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Username17 »

It sounds like we need two different kinds of skills


At least. Insight and Perception are Armor Classes in this model. So people could have Stealth Attacks which target them. These all scale to level. Which means that when the guards are sneaking up on our hero, his eyes get all wide at the last minute and he is not unceremoniously captured but instead starts a brawl.

Unfortunately it also means that kids aren't going to pickpocket this guy.

Non-combat skills. Stuff like craft, appraise, speak language, pick pockets, etc. These could be independent of character level, and have a completely different system than the one we're using for combat. Maybe even a return to something more like 2e's non-weapon proficiencies, but less terrible?


This is where I was thinking of the +0/+5/+10 stacked on to the base stat mod. Although I suppose at that rate we might as well go for +0/+3/+6/+9 - as that way you'd neatly double your bonus by being a fully accredited expert on a subject.

These skills might even want to be rolled on 3d6 instead of a d20.

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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

FrankTrollman wrote:Unfortunately it also means that kids aren't going to pickpocket this guy.


To be fair, in the cinematic tradition kids rarely actually successfully pickpocket. Either the hero catches them immediately to show off how smooth and forgiving he is, or the hero realizes he's been dipped almost immediately and then there's a chase scene.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Koumei »

But the kid would need some awesome ability to help him escape (or at least keep the chase going fora good amount of time). With a bonus for Benny Hill music playing in the background.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by PhoneLobster »

Which reminds me.

Chase mechanics.

You need a chase mini game.

Shutup, you do too.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Koumei »

Oh, I agree fully. If you can include busy streets (see: every chase scene that involves Jackie Chan, or, let's be honest, any chase scene ever), possibly carts full of watermelons, maybe even two guys carrying a glass pane...

Well, those elements can make for lighter, comedic parts of the game, but a decent way to resolve an actual chase in a dramatic scenario would be really important too.

I can see it being difficult. I mean, in 3E it's currently "Roll Initiative. If the chaser wins Init and can reach and hit/grapple/whatever in that first round, they win. If not, then as long as they have even equal movement rates, the person running will always win. Unless they both keep going, never losing sight of each other, and the pursued gets tired before the pursuer."

Any other option basically involves ignoring the rules as they are. So for NE, we'd need to figure out something that has an impact on movement speeds.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1204577825[/unixtime]] Insight and Perception are Armor Classes in this model. So people could have Stealth Attacks which target them. These all scale to level. Which means that when the guards are sneaking up on our hero, his eyes get all wide at the last minute and he is not unceremoniously captured but instead starts a brawl.

Unfortunately it also means that kids aren't going to pickpocket this guy.

Only if pick pockets is a combat stealth attack that you roll against perception. It could easily be a noncombat skill rolled against street smarts.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by ckafrica »

I remember reading that spycraft 2.0 had a set of minigames for a plethora of different skill based actions like social and chases and the like. I know there is one spycraft fanboy around here, is there anything in it worth stealing?
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by NoDot »

PhoneLobster at [unixtime wrote:1204594315[/unixtime]]Which reminds me.

Chase mechanics.

You need a chase mini game.

Shutup, you do too.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Username17 »

You do need Chase Rules. nWoD has Chase Rules which are bad, D&D has no chase rules and that's even worse.

But getting away should be something as exciting and filled with peril as standing and fighting. Otherwise you just get into a situation where nobody ever runs from combat, like in D&D where you can't get away from 90% of the monsters anyhow.

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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

That ties in a lot with creating difficult terrain (and its effects) and K's proposed simultaneous action initiative system.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Draco_Argentum »

I've been thinking along similar lines to Frank for incidental skills. There needs to be a way for a sage to know heaps more than the PCs without being a combat badass. That sort of character is all over stories. This pretty much makes a non-level based mechanic mandatory since basic combat numbers are all level based. There is also no way non-combat options will be presented as level abilities that you can take instead of combat ones.

Once its not level based theres very little reason to track piddly little differences of +1 on a d20. Splitting it into broad bands works just fine. That covers knowledge, craft and profession nicely.

What about social skills? Should those be level based? Should the diplomat automatically be a combat beast too is the real question. I'd rather they weren't. That seems to fit the source material well enough.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Username17 »

Jacob_Orlove at [unixtime wrote:1204600466[/unixtime]]
Only if pick pockets is a combat stealth attack that you roll against perception. It could easily be a noncombat skill rolled against street smarts.


Good point.

DA wrote:What about social skills? Should those be level based? Should the diplomat automatically be a combat beast too is the real question. I'd rather they weren't. That seems to fit the source material well enough.


It varies depending upon source material. There is the trope of the squishy herald. But the might champion always gets the girls. And the squishy herald only gets listened to because he represents the King of Three Shadows.

My thought is that there should be some non-leveled social options (Street Smarts and Appraise, for example), and some leveled social options. But the level modifier for the social options uses the highest level on your team. This allows powerful demons to show up and have a silver tongued flunky come up and tell people why they need to do what the demon says.

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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Does every mighty champion get the girls though? If not I'd say its not level based. Maybe the ones who don't have scantily clad princesses throwing them selves at them don't have points in what ever social skill represents that.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Username17 »

Does every mighty champion get the girls though?


Some of them have eyes only for their one true love or whatever and have the girls fawning all over them. Others of them only belatedly gain the love of the princess (like, after they complete the quest and go up in level).

But here's a list of heroic champions, try to spot one of them who can't walk into an alehouse and come out with someone's thong in half an hour (assuming for the moment that he wanted to):
  • Brak the Barbarian
  • Conan the Cimmerian
  • Druss the Axe
  • Elric of Melniboné
  • Fafhrd
  • Imaro
  • Kane
  • Kull
  • Robin Hood
  • Arjuna
  • Prince Eric
  • Tarzan
  • Aladdin
  • Sindbad


I mean sure, Elric only wants to fuck his sister. But he can get women out of their panties right quick if he pulls out the sword and tells everyone who he is.

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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1204612746[/unixtime]]You do need Chase Rules. nWoD has Chase Rules which are bad, D&D has no chase rules and that's even worse.

But getting away should be something as exciting and filled with peril as standing and fighting. Otherwise you just get into a situation where nobody ever runs from combat, like in D&D where you can't get away from 90% of the monsters anyhow.

-Username17


So, we could use some of the combat mechanics and have there be 'chase attacks,' which I'm going to call 'gambits,' which attempt to close or widen the gap. Strength gambits include jumping wide gaps and pushing over apple stands, Dexterity gambits include diving through narrow openings and running over uneven terrain, Constitution gambits include long stretches and sewer detours, Intelligence gambits include double-backs and chase geometry, Wisdom gambits include pacing yourself and spotting hazards the other guy doesn't, and Charisma gambits include 'you're a yellow-bellied coward' and 'you'd have to be an idiot to follow me in here.'

When a chase begins, the pursuer has a lead of X, depending on circumstances. Pursuit gambits reduce the lead, quarry gambits increase it. When the lead hits Y, the quarry has escaped. When the lead hits 0, the quarry is caught. I think the last-used pursuit gambit would determine how the quarry is caught, from 'tackled,' to 'cornered,' to 'convinced to stop.'

Gambits can also involve injury. Sometimes a gambit is 'shoot him,' and sometimes it's 'jump over a waterfall.'
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Falgund »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1204641984[/unixtime]]I mean sure, Elric only wants to fuck his sister. But he can get women out of their panties right quick if he pulls out the sword and tells everyone who he is.


True Heroes only create extreme emotions around them, either you love them or you hate them (or both). And it seems to be based only on their notoriety (thus the part where "if he ... tells everyone who he is").

Now, the question is: Are they notorious because they are high level (and thus a level based bonus), or are they because of their known heroic accomplishment (and thus "Diplomatic Position Scores which are influenced by winning battles") ?
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by Manxome »

Just as you don't want a long combat to degenerate to simply using your best attack over and over, you want the actions people take in a long chase to have some depth and variation to them. That means you need to be able to affect your opponent in some way other than shortening or lengthening the lead.

It's kind of weird for the chaser to affect the prey unless they happen to be capable of hitting him with an arrow or a spell, but you might be able to get away with the prey setting up obstacles for the chaser and the chaser trying to predict the obstacles and take precautions without directly affecting the prey.
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Re: TNE: Skills?

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Manxome at [unixtime wrote:1204658107[/unixtime]]Just as you don't want a long combat to degenerate to simply using your best attack over and over, you want the actions people take in a long chase to have some depth and variation to them. That means you need to be able to affect your opponent in some way other than shortening or lengthening the lead.


Why? It's a chase scene mini-game, not the climax of a race movie. I think that variety in chase scenes comes from the participants and the environment. I mean, if you're being chased by a man on a Dire Bat, he's not going to be impressed at all by how big a gap you can jump over; but if you go into the sewer, the guy has to get off his bat to follow you; and if there are no sewers, you might have to release the stock of a bird-seller to distract the bat; and if there's no bird-seller, well, you'll have to think of something else. I don't think the mini-game needs any more depth than that.

It's kind of weird for the chaser to affect the prey unless they happen to be capable of hitting him with an arrow or a spell, but you might be able to get away with the prey setting up obstacles for the chaser and the chaser trying to predict the obstacles and take precautions without directly affecting the prey.


And what do these obstacles effectively do besides lengthen or shorten the lead?
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