Best full-BAB non-Prestige non-multiclassed class in 3E?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:40 am

I'm going to have to go ahead and say it's the Warblade. They get a mess of feats, have d12 hit points, and also have access to the bet st schools. There are a couple of manuevers off of Shadow Hand / Desert Wind / Setting Sun / Devoted Spirit they might want to plunder, but they can easily snag them with magic items. If you're using a die-rolling scheme and rolled really well they get some nice bonuses, too.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:43 am

I have to say that this boot is the tastiest boot I have yet come across.

-Username17

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:00 am

FrankTrollman wrote:I have to say that this boot is the tastiest boot I have yet come across.

-Username17

Can someone translate this for me? Has Frank been drinking? If he has, why hasn't he been sharing?

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:10 am

Sure it's good, but good shit is still shit?

I don't know or understand either.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:11 am

I think Frank is saying that looking for the best non-rogue sword-based class is little more than trying to find the best out of a pile of godawful options.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:17 am

But is it better than a triple gestalt CW Samurai / Healer / Soulknife? I mean, you can totally heal yourself. At least once every day! And you have a sword! Possibly several swords! And the ability to yell really loud! Who could possibly resist?

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:27 am

ubernoob wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:I have to say that this boot is the tastiest boot I have yet come across.

-Username17
Can someone translate this for me? Has Frank been drinking? If he has, why hasn't he been sharing?

As I understand it, Frank does share his drink and even takes care of those who go overboard on occasion. It's just that there's geographical issues with it happening regularly... stupid physical dimensions providing excuses.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:46 am

No Way Frank. My Boot is way tastier then that dumb boot. I love my tasty boot.

It's called the Lightning Warrior.

But it's okay guys. It doesn't have a Familiar.

Did I mention my boot is made out of chocolate cake and ice cream?

sake · Post by **sake** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:02 am

I'd actually say Ranger if we're including a few 3rd party spats (there were a couple that actually made a ranger's spell casting actually worth a crap), if Ist party stuff only, I'd say the Duskblade.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:42 am

Would saying "cleric" be too disingenuous at this point?

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:36 am

Only slightly. It is technically non-full BAB, even though Divine Power makes it so.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:39 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Would saying "cleric" be too disingenuous at this point?

No more so than the parameters of the original challenge.

-Username17

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:27 pm

Cleric or Ranger if you're below 7th level, Rogue's good if you can get 4th level wands.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:57 am

In keeping with the spirit of the original question: ranger or paladin. Neither are spectacular, but with SpC they become much more awesome. And Battle Blessing is nifty, too.

EDIT: Well, I figured ToB classes didn't count. Duskblade is pretty good, too.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:02 am

A well-built Duskblade isn't bad, at least at low levels. There's something to be said for Swift-casting Blade of Blood, then sauntering up to the enemy and smacking them with a +1 Spellstoring greatsword (spell stored: Scorching Ray) and channelling Shocking Grasp, for 14d6 + Strength and a half at 5th level - but that's a once per day deal, and deals 1d6 damage to you. If your DM rules Channeling not as a Standard Action but as something you can apply to an Attack Action, it's even better, because you can use it on a charge, Swift-True Striking then Power Attacking your BAB away with Leap Attack.

But you'll notice that the big thing here is they do a lot of damage at low levels, but not much else (although picking up Swift Fly later on can at least mean they're not completely useless at higher levels).

Also, during the first two levels, they can't even combine sword and spell, and despite having a full BAB and, quite possibly, Sleep or Colour Spray (I forget), they just feel a bit... disappointing then, because you're waiting for 3rd level.

Additionally, a Hexblade isn't completely terrible: earliest levels they have a d10 hit die and a full BAB, and they can also (as a Swift action) grant a penalty to enemies. At level 4, they can either wait to 6th level to take Improved Familiar and ride around on a stegosaurus or whatever (remember it has half of his HP, and he has a d10, making the familiar healthier than the party wizard. It also has his BAB) or they can have a pet ghost that gives even more penalties to enemies. Add Intimidate to the mix, and you can basically be throwing around [Fear] effects all day.

Also, at level (too high), he gets Polymorph. It's *supposed* to be "Curse your enemies into mice", but the fact is, with such shitty save DCs you are not doing that (unless you've Hexxed them, had the ghost penalise their save, AND intimidated them). What you are in fact doing is turning into something bigger than you are, like a lame version of a wizard.

That all being said, a Rogue is just better than either, and a full caster even more so. But at least they get some options and things. I dunno.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:11 am

Man, Hexblades are a disappointment. They're so COOL but so ineffectual.

The cursing people is fun, the improved familiar is neat, and their spells are FUN. The Hound of Doom especially. Such a stylish combat character.

Too bad they have light armor, unworkable stat requirements, and no damage mechanic.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:55 am

True, that. About the best you can do in your turn is:

1. Not an Action: direct ghost dog to move next to the enemy (-2 penalty on saves and AC)
2. Move Action: wander up to them.
3. Standard Action: smack them in the head with Intimidating Strike. Take out a small penalty to hit. Intimidate them (Shaken for the encounter, they're now at -4 on saves).
4. Swift Action: Hex their ass. The -4 on saves probably means they fail the save (especially if you took Ability Focus, which you did - so far that's 2 out of your 2-3 feats at level 4), so now they're at -4 on most actions, -2 on AC, and -6 on saving throws.

Now a fellow team mate hits them with a spell and they die. Oh wait, they probably didn't need you for that. Still, next turn you might be able to do something to them. I don't know, scroll-cast a useful spell on them or something. Maybe at later levels you hatch into a Dragonborn and breath weapon them on following turns or something.

That's probably the best you can get out of them, but at least it works well in a team, setting the enemy up to get creamed by your friends.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:30 pm

I'm gonna go with the Paladin, mostly for their level 11+ gold dragon Pokemon they carry around in their pants.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:52 pm

ubernoob wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:I have to say that this boot is the tastiest boot I have yet come across.

-Username17
Can someone translate this for me? Has Frank been drinking? If he has, why hasn't he been sharing?

I frankly thought he was thinking of this boot.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:31 am

Hicks wrote:I'm gonna go with the Paladin, mostly for their level 11+ gold dragon Pokemon they carry around in their pants.

They do what now? I must know how you came to this conclusion, for it is an awesome conclusion.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:12 am

pg 204 of DMG, other mounts.

Mount should always be CR=Paladin ECL-3. Or if they can fly CR=ECL-4.

A level 10 Paladin can therefore, have various Dragon mounts.

You should pick the one that has the best HD to CR ratio.

Also, you get to add your special Paladin HD to the mount after choosing it, so you can then upgrade it to basically be a Dragon of CR=ECL.

You are awesome, and your mount is really your character.

To quote Frank, "You play a Gold Dragon with a tin can on it's back."

And you take Epic Leadership (cause you can pick your own feats) and then you have a bunch of Wizards of higher level then the people who wrote Wizard on their character sheet.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:33 pm

Koumei wrote:True, that. About the best you can do in your turn is:
1. Not an Action: direct ghost dog to move next to the enemy (-2 penalty on saves and AC)
2. Move Action: wander up to them.
3. Standard Action: smack them in the head with Intimidating Strike. Take out a small penalty to hit. Intimidate them (Shaken for the encounter, they're now at -4 on saves).
4. Swift Action: Hex their ass. The -4 on saves probably means they fail the save (especially if you took Ability Focus, which you did - so far that's 2 out of your 2-3 feats at level 4), so now they're at -4 on most actions, -2 on AC, and -6 on saving throws.

Level 1 Enchanter.
You get some sort of familiar.
You take your feat as Unsettling enchantment.
You take Distract Assailant (swift action spell, Will save or be Flat footed)

Every round you take a swift action to belt someone in the face with Distract Assailant. If they fail the save, they can't make AoOs, lose the Dex bonus to AC, and are totally sneak-attackable by the rogue. Also, they take another -2 to atk/AC.

A level 1 character (not even particularly optimized for the task) cast belt out a:
-4 AC, -2 atk, sneak attackable, denied AoOs SWIFT ACTION
against
-4 on most actions, -2 on AC, and -6 on saving throws FULL ROUND ACTION

Hexblade is just not very good.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:15 pm

However, -6 saves is the key part. Though you can do better with Enervation, Quickened Ray of Sickness, and Fearsome backed Imperious Command if you're going to devote all your actions to it.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:15 am

Roy wrote:Though you can do better with Enervation, Quickened Ray of Sickness, and Fearsome backed Imperious Command if you're going to devote all your actions to it.

That was a 4th-level character. Now, if it's general penalties (and rogue-synergy) you want, that level 1 Enchanter is better, but if it's saves specifically, then by the time your average Wizard is churning those spells out, the Hexblade is giving bigger penalties.

Except by that point, the Wizard and Enchanter are also doing better things than put penalties on saving throws. They are ending fights. Hell, they could be ending fights on level 1, if they feel like it. But come on, we're comparing local teams to Man. United here. That's a little unfair, this thread is about the most delicious boot.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:41 am

Cloudy Conjuration Blockade. -2 to saves as swift action to at least one person. Now add a spell that level 3-5 Wizards can cast.