As I said in the Lasher thread, that Tome game is finally going to happen and I am trying to tie up a few loose ends. Here is a big loose end that desperately needs tying down.
For druids, I am looking ast keeping them largely the same as they are in the 3.5 PHB, with the exception of Wildshape. I have modified Wildshape below.
I blatantly admit that this is a blatant rip off of Tome Polymorph. As such, I know it needs work, but I make no claims to being good at writing fair and balanced rules.
Luckily for me I have a crack team of Rules Lawyers on retainer.
Tear it up, guys. How can this be better? Is it workable at all?
[Tome]Wildshape
Moderator: Moderators
Wild Shape (Su)
The druid assumes the appearance of a specific or generic animal or magical beast , applying templates to his character as appropriate to his level (see below). The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. At the levels indicated above, the druid may use this ability multiple times per day. A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
The druid is effectively disguised, and gains a +10 bonus on Deception checks made to impersonate the genuine article. The druid suffers no penalties to Deception for assuming the visage of a different race or sex. The new form is unable to use equipment and items (all carried or worn items meld into the new form when the spell takes effect), and has whatever natural weapons the caster desires (to a maximum of 1 natural weapon per four levels). Any equipment the character had is subsumed into their new form and is unusable. A druid can’t cast spells or use spell like abilities when Wild Shaped.
At 5th level, a druid may assume any of the following forms:
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Medium 1d6 Flying 60' Fly Speed (Good), +2 Dex
[*]Medium 1d6 Land 40' Land Speed, +2 Str, +2 Natural Armor
[*]Medium 1d6 Swim 60' Swim Speed, +2 Str, +2 Natural Armor
[*]Small 1d4 Flying 90' Fly Speed (Good), +4 Dex, -4 Str
[*]Small 1d4 Land +2 Dex
[*]Small 1d4 Swim 60' Swim Speed
At 6th level, a druid may also assume any of the following forms:
Form Size, Damage, Form Type, Form Advantages
[*]Large, 1d8, Flying, 90' Fly Speed (Avg), +2 Dex, +4 Str, +1 Nat Ar
[*]Large, 1d8, Land +6 Strength, +5 Natural Armor
[*]Large 1d8 Swim 60' Swim Speed, +6 Str, +4 Natural Armor
At 8th level, a druid may also assume any of the following forms:
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Large 1d8 Flying 60' Fly Speed (Average), +8 Str, +6 Natural Armor, Nat Ranged Att (1d8 + Str, 19-20 Crit, 20' Range Inc.)
[*]Medium 1d6 Land 50' Land Speed, +4 Str, +4 Dex, Improved Trip
[*]Large 1d8 Land +8 Str, +2 Dex, +5 Natural Armor, Total Concealment
[*]Large 1d8 Land 30' Climb Speed, +8 Str, +8 Natural Armor, Poison (1d6 Con/1d6 Con)
[*]Large 1d8 Land 20' Burrow Speed, +8 Str, +10 Natural Armor
[*]Large 1d8 Swim 60' Swim Speed, +8 Str, +6 Natural Armor, [Aquatic] Subtype
At 11th level, a druid may also assume any of the following forms:
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Huge 2d6 Land +14 Str, +10 Natural Armor, Improved Grab, Poison (1d6 Dex, 1d6 Dex)
[*]Tiny 1d3 Flying 40' Fly Speed (Average), +4 Dex, -8 Str (Minimum of 1), +8 to Stealth, +2 to Attack and AC
[*]Tiny 1d3 Land 15' Speed, +4 Dex, -8 Str (Minimum of 1), +8 to Stealth, +2 to Attack and AC
[*]Tiny 1d3 Swim 40' Swim Speed, +4 Dex, -8 Str (Minimum of 1), +8 to Stealth, +2 to Attack and AC
Finally, at 15th level, a druid may also assume any of the following forms:
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Huge 2d6 Flying 120' Fly Speed (Poor), +14 Str, -4 Dex, +10 Natural Armor, Immunity to one energy type AND gain Breath Weapon of same energy type (line, 10'/level, 1d6/level)
[*]Huge 2d6 Swim 90' Swim Speed, +14 Str, -4 Dex, +10 Natural Armor, Immunity to one energy type AND gain Breath Weapon of same energy type (line, 10'/level, 1d6/level)
Regardless of your level, you may only assume one form at a time.
Elemental Wild Shape (Su)
The druid assumes the appearance of a specific or generic elemental, applying templates to his character (see below). The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until he changes back. Changing form (to elemental or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. At the levels indicated above, the druid may use this ability multiple times per day.
The druid is effectively disguised, and gains a +10 bonus on Deception checks made to impersonate the genuine article. The druid suffers no penalties to Deception for assuming the visage of a different race or sex. The new form is unable to use equipment and items (all carried or worn items meld into the new form when the spell takes effect), and has whatever natural weapons the caster desires (to a maximum of 1 natural weapon per four levels). Any equipment the character had is subsumed into their new form and is unusable. A druid can’t cast spells or use spell like abilities when Elemental Wild Shaped.
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Medium 1d6 Flying 100' Fly Speed (Perfect), +6 Dex, Air Mastery (Airborne creatures suffer -1 to hit and damage rolls vs. the druid), Speak Auran
[*]Medium 1d6 Land 20' Burrow Speed, +2 Str, -2 Dex, +3 Natural Armor, Earth Mastery (+1 to hit creatures touching the ground), Earth Glide (Glide through earth or stone, but not metal, like a fish through water. Leaves no tunnel.), Tremorsense 60 feet, Speak Terran
[*]Medium 1d6 Swim 90' Swim Speed, Water Mastery (+1 to hit creatures touching water), Drench (Extinguish non-magical fires of Large size or less by touch. On magical fire, touch acts as dispel magic (Caster level = Druid Level)), Speak Aquan
[*]Medium 1d6 Land Enemies hit by Nat Attacks take +2d6 Fire Damage AND Reflex Save (DC=Druid's HD+7) or catch fire for 1d4 rounds (2d6 damage each round, may extinguish as a Full Round Action), Immune to Fire, Speak Ignan
Regardless of the above form chosen, for the duration of the Elemental Wild Shape the druid gains:
• Immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning
• Not subject to critical hits
• Darkvision with a range of sixty feet
• Damage Reduction 10/Magic
At 20th level, a druid may also assume any of the above forms, but with a size of Huge. In addition to the advantages listed above, the Huge size confers a +16 Size bonus to Strength, a -4 Size penalty to Dex, a +8 Size bonus to Con, a +5 Natural Armor Bonus, and a -2 Size penalty. The druid’s natural attacks inflict 2d6 base damage.
Regardless of your level, you may only assume one form at a time.
The druid assumes the appearance of a specific or generic animal or magical beast , applying templates to his character as appropriate to his level (see below). The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. At the levels indicated above, the druid may use this ability multiple times per day. A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
The druid is effectively disguised, and gains a +10 bonus on Deception checks made to impersonate the genuine article. The druid suffers no penalties to Deception for assuming the visage of a different race or sex. The new form is unable to use equipment and items (all carried or worn items meld into the new form when the spell takes effect), and has whatever natural weapons the caster desires (to a maximum of 1 natural weapon per four levels). Any equipment the character had is subsumed into their new form and is unusable. A druid can’t cast spells or use spell like abilities when Wild Shaped.
At 5th level, a druid may assume any of the following forms:
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Medium 1d6 Flying 60' Fly Speed (Good), +2 Dex
[*]Medium 1d6 Land 40' Land Speed, +2 Str, +2 Natural Armor
[*]Medium 1d6 Swim 60' Swim Speed, +2 Str, +2 Natural Armor
[*]Small 1d4 Flying 90' Fly Speed (Good), +4 Dex, -4 Str
[*]Small 1d4 Land +2 Dex
[*]Small 1d4 Swim 60' Swim Speed
At 6th level, a druid may also assume any of the following forms:
Form Size, Damage, Form Type, Form Advantages
[*]Large, 1d8, Flying, 90' Fly Speed (Avg), +2 Dex, +4 Str, +1 Nat Ar
[*]Large, 1d8, Land +6 Strength, +5 Natural Armor
[*]Large 1d8 Swim 60' Swim Speed, +6 Str, +4 Natural Armor
At 8th level, a druid may also assume any of the following forms:
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Large 1d8 Flying 60' Fly Speed (Average), +8 Str, +6 Natural Armor, Nat Ranged Att (1d8 + Str, 19-20 Crit, 20' Range Inc.)
[*]Medium 1d6 Land 50' Land Speed, +4 Str, +4 Dex, Improved Trip
[*]Large 1d8 Land +8 Str, +2 Dex, +5 Natural Armor, Total Concealment
[*]Large 1d8 Land 30' Climb Speed, +8 Str, +8 Natural Armor, Poison (1d6 Con/1d6 Con)
[*]Large 1d8 Land 20' Burrow Speed, +8 Str, +10 Natural Armor
[*]Large 1d8 Swim 60' Swim Speed, +8 Str, +6 Natural Armor, [Aquatic] Subtype
At 11th level, a druid may also assume any of the following forms:
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Huge 2d6 Land +14 Str, +10 Natural Armor, Improved Grab, Poison (1d6 Dex, 1d6 Dex)
[*]Tiny 1d3 Flying 40' Fly Speed (Average), +4 Dex, -8 Str (Minimum of 1), +8 to Stealth, +2 to Attack and AC
[*]Tiny 1d3 Land 15' Speed, +4 Dex, -8 Str (Minimum of 1), +8 to Stealth, +2 to Attack and AC
[*]Tiny 1d3 Swim 40' Swim Speed, +4 Dex, -8 Str (Minimum of 1), +8 to Stealth, +2 to Attack and AC
Finally, at 15th level, a druid may also assume any of the following forms:
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Huge 2d6 Flying 120' Fly Speed (Poor), +14 Str, -4 Dex, +10 Natural Armor, Immunity to one energy type AND gain Breath Weapon of same energy type (line, 10'/level, 1d6/level)
[*]Huge 2d6 Swim 90' Swim Speed, +14 Str, -4 Dex, +10 Natural Armor, Immunity to one energy type AND gain Breath Weapon of same energy type (line, 10'/level, 1d6/level)
Regardless of your level, you may only assume one form at a time.
Elemental Wild Shape (Su)
The druid assumes the appearance of a specific or generic elemental, applying templates to his character (see below). The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until he changes back. Changing form (to elemental or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. At the levels indicated above, the druid may use this ability multiple times per day.
The druid is effectively disguised, and gains a +10 bonus on Deception checks made to impersonate the genuine article. The druid suffers no penalties to Deception for assuming the visage of a different race or sex. The new form is unable to use equipment and items (all carried or worn items meld into the new form when the spell takes effect), and has whatever natural weapons the caster desires (to a maximum of 1 natural weapon per four levels). Any equipment the character had is subsumed into their new form and is unusable. A druid can’t cast spells or use spell like abilities when Elemental Wild Shaped.
Form Size Damage Form Type Form Advantages
[*]Medium 1d6 Flying 100' Fly Speed (Perfect), +6 Dex, Air Mastery (Airborne creatures suffer -1 to hit and damage rolls vs. the druid), Speak Auran
[*]Medium 1d6 Land 20' Burrow Speed, +2 Str, -2 Dex, +3 Natural Armor, Earth Mastery (+1 to hit creatures touching the ground), Earth Glide (Glide through earth or stone, but not metal, like a fish through water. Leaves no tunnel.), Tremorsense 60 feet, Speak Terran
[*]Medium 1d6 Swim 90' Swim Speed, Water Mastery (+1 to hit creatures touching water), Drench (Extinguish non-magical fires of Large size or less by touch. On magical fire, touch acts as dispel magic (Caster level = Druid Level)), Speak Aquan
[*]Medium 1d6 Land Enemies hit by Nat Attacks take +2d6 Fire Damage AND Reflex Save (DC=Druid's HD+7) or catch fire for 1d4 rounds (2d6 damage each round, may extinguish as a Full Round Action), Immune to Fire, Speak Ignan
Regardless of the above form chosen, for the duration of the Elemental Wild Shape the druid gains:
• Immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning
• Not subject to critical hits
• Darkvision with a range of sixty feet
• Damage Reduction 10/Magic
At 20th level, a druid may also assume any of the above forms, but with a size of Huge. In addition to the advantages listed above, the Huge size confers a +16 Size bonus to Strength, a -4 Size penalty to Dex, a +8 Size bonus to Con, a +5 Natural Armor Bonus, and a -2 Size penalty. The druid’s natural attacks inflict 2d6 base damage.
Regardless of your level, you may only assume one form at a time.
Last edited by fbmf on Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
any equipment the character had is subsumed into their new form and is unusable. A druid can’t cast spells or use spell like abilities when Wild Shaped.
Wait, wait, wait... so I'm a 5th level tome druid and I probably have something like a Magic Dragonscale Armor, Magic Dragonscale Shield, and a Magic Flaming Shortpsear, Granting me an AC of +13, an attack of +2, a damage of around 1d6 + 2 + 1d6 (fire) and counts as magic, and a +2 enhancement bonus to wisdom (probably adding a +1 Attack if I took the Insightful Srtike feat)
I wildshape into anything on the level 5 list and my AC bonus drops to a maximum of +3 (net -10), my Attack bonus to +1 (net -1), and my Damage is at best 1d6+1 (average net -4.5); I need to point out that the highest AC and Damage cannot be had at the same time. To add insult to injury I cannot even cast Magic Fang on myself while wildshaped and therfore just die every time I face a CR 3 Shadow. Oh yeah, and I also can neither communicate with my party nor interact through dialog with NPCs.
Now, I try not to bitch about a problem without suggesting a solution. Here is my solution:
Wildshape (Su): At 5th level a druid may wildshape once per day. At every even druid class level after 5th, the druid gains the ability to wildshape an additional time per day. A druid's wildshape has a duration of his class level in hours. A druid may voluntarily end his wildshape before it's duration has ended with a standard action which does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If a druid with multiple wildshapes per day wildshapes again before the duration of his origional wildshape has expired, the origional wildshape duration ends and the new one begins.
Whenever you wildshape, you transform into another form, your equipment melds into your new form, your size changes, your type changes, and you select a bonus; all of these effects are dependent on the druid's level
- Transform: While wildshaped, the druid assumes the appearance of a specific or generic creature of its type (see below), and gains a +10 bonus to their Disguise (deception, whatever) checks for impersonating such a creature, and although the timber of their voice may change the druid can speak any language they know without difficulty (earth elementals sound gravely, plants sound like Treebeard, and lions sound like Azlan and so on). Regardless of their new form, they lose the ability of fine manipulation (Yes, even if they look like a monkey they still can't open doorknobs, wield weapons, or write a letter; shut up about it). The druid need not select a specific creature to imitate, and may freely select their wildshaped form's gender, height, weight, hair and eqyq color, and any other nonmechanical way to describe the druid's wildshaped form within the normal bounds of the kind of creature they have wildshaped into. Regardless of whether or not they are impersonating a specific creature or a genaric one, their changed voices and unwieldy or non-existant hands do not hamper spellcasting in any way.
Equipment: All equipment you are wearing melds into your form, you still count as wearing your equipment even though it has melded into your form so all bonuses and penalties from melded equipment apply, effectivly making all your items unsunderable. Any melee weapon you wield as you wildshape turns into a natural attack with the same damage type, damage profile, and attack bonus as before.
Size: At 5th level, a druid may Wildshape into a Medium or Small creature, at 9th level a Large or Tiny creature, at 13th level a Huge or Diminuative, and at 17th level a Collossal or Fine creature. Changing size grants a bonus or penalty to a druid's ability scores as indicated on page 291 of the Monster Manual, and also changes your Natural Attack's base weapon damage to reflect you new size based on the tables fount on page28 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.
Type: At 5 level, a druid when Wildshaped replaces their type with the Animal type. At 12th level a druid when Wildshaped replaces their type with either the Animal or Plant types, and at 16th level a druid when Wildshaped replaces their type with either the Animal, Plant, or Elemental [air, earth, water or fire] type.
Natural Abilities: Whenever a druid Wildshapes, he gains a number of Natural Abilities based selected from a list that is appropriate to his level. At 5th level, each time a druid wildshapes he can select abilities off the Lesser Abilities list, at 10th level a druid instead selects off the Greater Abilities list, and at 15th level a druid only selects from the Elder Ability list.
- Lesser Abilities: At 5th level, whenever a druid Wildshapes he gains any 2 of the following abilities:
- While wildshaped, the druid has Blindsense 60'
- While wildshaped, the druid has Low Light Vision
- While wildshaped, the druid has an extra movement mode. If a druid selects a movement mode that he aready has, he instead increases his origional movement mode by the same ammount as he would have gained.
- Burrow: may burrow at a rate of 1/2 his base land speed.
Climb: a wildshaped druid may climb at a rate of 1/2 his base land speed.
Flight: a wildshaped druid may fly at a rate of his base land speed.
Land Speed: a wildshaped druid may walk at a rate of his base land speed. If the druid has also selected the Swim movement mode below, this instead unlocks his base land speed.
Swim: a wildshaped druid may swim at a rate of his base landspeed and can breathe water, but cannot beathe air or walk on land while wildshaped (although he does not lose his landspeed, he may not use it); these restrictions are lifted if the druid has also selected the Land Speed movement mode above.
- Burrow: may burrow at a rate of 1/2 his base land speed.
- Anytime a the wildshaped druid hits a creature with his Natural Attack, the struck creatrue must make a DC 10 + 1/2 the druid's HD + the druids Constitution modifier Fortitude save or be Poisoned (initial and secondary 1d6 Strength)
- A wildshaped druid gains the natural ability to Pounce
- While wildshaped, the druid has Scent
- A wildshaped druid may make an Improved Grab for his Natural Attack.
- Anytime a the wildshaped druid hits a creature with his Natural Attack, the struck creatrue must make a DC 10 + 1/2 the druid's HD + the druids Constitution modifier Fortitude save or be Poisoned (initial and secondary 1d6 Dexterity)
- Anytime a wildshaped druid charges and damages a foe, they inflict an extra 1d6 damage for every 3 hitdice they possess (round up).
- A wildshaped druid may Trample his foes. His Trample damage is the same as his Natural Attack damage.
- While wildshaped, the druid has Tremorsense 60'
- Select 2 Natural Abilities from the Lesser Ability list
- While wildshaped, the druid has Blindsight 60'
- Anytime a the wildshaped druid hits a creature with his Natural Attack, the struck creatrue must make a DC 10 + 1/2 the druid's HD + the druids Constitution modifier Fortitude save or be Poisoned (initial and secondary 1d6 Constitution)
- If the druid begins turn grappeling a creature it can attempt have them Swallowed Whole. If successful, the swallowed creature takes the druid's Natural Attack damage. The interior AC of the Druid is 1/2 their normal AC, with no bonuses or penalties due to dexterity or size applied. The swallowed creature must inflect the druid's HD in damage to cut its way out of the druid's stomach. Any creature in the druid's stomach takes 1/3 the druid's HD in d6 of acid damge at the beginning of the creature's turn.
- Select 2 Natural Abilities from the Greater Abilities list
- Lesser Abilities: At 5th level, whenever a druid Wildshapes he gains any 2 of the following abilities:
Last edited by Hicks on Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
-Kid Radd
shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.
Stuff I've MadeLokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed
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CatharzGodfoot
- King
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- Location: North Carolina
The most important aspects of wild shape since pretty much ever are stealth and mobility. Being able to turn into a sparrow covers both of those pretty damn' well. Being able to turn into a salmon and a sparrow (not at the same time 
) just about covers it completely. Throw in a deer for overland speed. That's enough for wild shape. The forms don't need to be badass; they just need to be useful.
What I'd like to see is a few sets of slightly differing thematically appropriate animals. So you have deer/hawk/beaver, buzzard/lizard/frog, horse/eagle/salmon, otter/albatross/crab, and so forth. If you want, you can throw in a combat form and make it scale appropriately from the level you get it. So there are wolf, bear, lion, rhino, and crocodile druids. That's easy enough to incorporate into above set.
I don't see much reason for items to stop working, at least in combat forms. We already know exactly what they're capable of. It's a lot more work to recalculate a character's entire stat block than just saying 'you gain a bonus to strength, improved grab, 40' speed, and your weapons' enhancements now apply to your claws'.
[Edit]
Actually, you know what? Fuck that noise. Druids are full spell casters. Just write up a few animal form spells and be done with it!
[/Edit]
) just about covers it completely. Throw in a deer for overland speed. That's enough for wild shape. The forms don't need to be badass; they just need to be useful.What I'd like to see is a few sets of slightly differing thematically appropriate animals. So you have deer/hawk/beaver, buzzard/lizard/frog, horse/eagle/salmon, otter/albatross/crab, and so forth. If you want, you can throw in a combat form and make it scale appropriately from the level you get it. So there are wolf, bear, lion, rhino, and crocodile druids. That's easy enough to incorporate into above set.
I don't see much reason for items to stop working, at least in combat forms. We already know exactly what they're capable of. It's a lot more work to recalculate a character's entire stat block than just saying 'you gain a bonus to strength, improved grab, 40' speed, and your weapons' enhancements now apply to your claws'.
[Edit]
Actually, you know what? Fuck that noise. Druids are full spell casters. Just write up a few animal form spells and be done with it!
[/Edit]
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Still worries me that Tome's polymorph makes anyone who attempts to buff themselves utterly screwed in terms of AC.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Considering the benefits gained from wildshape are now markedly limited, generally providing what amounts to some specific buffs or mobility benefits, it might not be unreasonable to say that wildshaping is adequate to the task of converting your gear to a usable form for your new shape. You become a tiger wearing dragonscale armor, your claws are sheathed in flame, your amulet and rings are still in place...Hicks wrote:Equipment: All equipment you are wearing melds into your form, you still count as wearing your equipment even though it has melded into your form so all bonuses and penalties from melded equipment apply, effectivly making all your items unsunderable. Any melee weapon you wield as you wildshape turns into a natural attack with the same damage type, damage profile, and attack bonus as before.
Shades of BattleCat!
You still suffer all effects of these, including load, sunderability, and so on. You have the option, when wildshaping of not doing this -- gear is either merged or left behind, depending on campaign preference. This might be doable on a per-item basis (a pigeon in dragonscale may have some difficulty getting off the ground, but having a ring around one leg wouldn't be unreasonable).
You might also consider reducing the duration to one minute per level when wildshaped, rather than one hour per level. It's not at all difficult to spend the entire time in BattleCat mode if you don't, and that might be a little much. In this case I'd still allow the longer duration if you're not getting the benefits of the gear, since you're probably not doing it for combat reasons.
Keith
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Judging__Eagle
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"Changing shape" should really be one of two things: a wide utility tool; or a carefully regulated combat buff.
One of the biggest problems in D&D is that it's both, and that leads to problems, like people not knowing what their class abilities can do, or dumpster diving for powerful forms.
Going for a "increasing tiers" series of abilities in the same way that the Astral Contruct line of psionic abilities might be a way to go. You can get 2 level appropriate abilities; or trade one out, to get 2 from a lower tier. With no limit on how low you can trade things out.
One of the biggest problems in D&D is that it's both, and that leads to problems, like people not knowing what their class abilities can do, or dumpster diving for powerful forms.
Going for a "increasing tiers" series of abilities in the same way that the Astral Contruct line of psionic abilities might be a way to go. You can get 2 level appropriate abilities; or trade one out, to get 2 from a lower tier. With no limit on how low you can trade things out.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Ubernoob, wildshape is a class ability, and that means that using an action to do it has to be better than spending an action to do nothing. Why the fuck would you, personally, in the middle of combat, elect to take a -10 to AC, halve your damage, and shut off your spellcasting? Thats like burning actions for the privilege of fighting in an antimagic field that only affected you. You wanna fly so bad? Ride a Griffon! You wanna be small? /reduce person! Both of those options provide a net benifit to doing them. Either an ability, any ability, has to meet the oppertunity cost of doing nothing and sitting there with your pile of bonuses, or you need not waste the pencil lead to write it on your character sheet.
-Kid Radd
shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.
Stuff I've MadeLokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed
Holy fucking shit, then people WON'T TURN INTO BEARS TO FIGHT ON THE FRONTLINE AS FULL CASTERS. Holy shit, it's almost as if being a full caster and getting a fairly potent pet in addition is enough as it is! Like, holy shit! Reserving being great in melee for melee characters? Who would have thought about such a revolutionary idea?Hicks wrote:Ubernoob, wildshape is a class ability, and that means that using an action to do it has to be better than spending an action to do nothing. Why the fuck would you, personally, in the middle of combat, elect to take a -10 to AC, halve your damage, and shut off your spellcasting? Thats like burning actions for the privilege of fighting in an antimagic field that only affected you. You wanna fly so bad? Ride a Griffon! You wanna be small? /reduce person! Both of those options provide a net benifit to doing them. Either an ability, any ability, has to meet the oppertunity cost of doing nothing and sitting there with your pile of bonuses, or you need not waste the pencil lead to write it on your character sheet.
Yes, letting druids be competent in melee with wildshape is a bad idea. They get ninth level spells that rock pretty thoroughly. Nobody should be turning into a melee monster when they can force the enemy to turn into a fucking bunny as a standard action.
I agree! The dude who goes "I am a bear!" should be different from the dude who goes "You're a bunny!"; I do not have a problem with this.ubernoob wrote:Yes, letting druids be competent in melee with wildshape is a bad idea. They get ninth level spells that rock pretty thoroughly. Nobody should be turning into a melee monster when they can force the enemy to turn into a fucking bunny as a standard action.
ubernoob wrote:Holy fucking shit, then people WON'T TURN INTO BEARS TO FIGHT ON THE FRONTLINE AS FULL CASTERS.
THIS is the part where you sound like a lunitic full of fail. If you don't want a player to do something, you don't punish them for doing it, you don't let them do it in the first place! Saying, "This is a level appropriate ability that does level appropriate things when you use it!" when what you are actually saying is, "I don't want you to do this, but I'm too chicken shit to tell you "No", so I'm gonna make you suffer by letting you shoot yourself in the foot by using a shitty ability." is a terrible thing to do.
Grow a Man bone, dude, and say no if you don't want them to do it; ban it, change it, whatever. The players are people, not dogs; they are there to have fun, not to sit, stay, and roll over after you wack them on the nose for misbehaving. If anyone designs an ability they know is shit and then tricks others into useing it, that person is a horrible decieving liar as well as a terrible person.
Now, if you say, "Druids shouldn't have wildshape because they are full casters." fine. But the part where you say:
You wrote:Why the FUCK should they be as good as a fully geared out combat character?[/i]
- 1: A fully geared out combat character does level appropriate actions in melee.
2: I designed an ability for a fully geared out druid to do a level appropriate thing in melee.
3: You want the druid to do an underpowered and level inappropriate thing in melee.
- 1: A fully geared out combat character does level appropriate actions in melee.
My closing arguement is on wildshape + full spellcasting: People who say that "versatility is power in an action economy" are dumb. It takes an action to do a level appropriate action in melee just as it takes an action to cast a level appropriate spell; you cannot do both at once, that's what "action economy" means. They - Are - Not - Synergistic. By definition, a level appropriate action is level appropriate, even if that action is a level appropriate buff. And a level appropriate action coupled with a level appropriate buff is still level appropriate; If you think that a druid buffing themselves is overpowered and a Martial Class being buffed isn't, I have nothing civil to say to you.
Last edited by Hicks on Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Avoraciopoctules
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When people use Druids in my games, I replace Wild Shape with this:
Wild Shape: You can turn into vaguely nature-related things. Treat this as Tome Polymorph Self with the caveats that you cannot turn into things like outsiders or constructs and you have at least 1 hit point left when the monster turns back into you. At level 6, the transformation lasts for hours/level.
EDIT: I waver back and forth between allowing druids to turn into things 2 CR or more below them instead of 3 CR or more.
Wild Shape: You can turn into vaguely nature-related things. Treat this as Tome Polymorph Self with the caveats that you cannot turn into things like outsiders or constructs and you have at least 1 hit point left when the monster turns back into you. At level 6, the transformation lasts for hours/level.
EDIT: I waver back and forth between allowing druids to turn into things 2 CR or more below them instead of 3 CR or more.
Last edited by Avoraciopoctules on Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I could see Wildshape being any of the following:
1) Utility Buff: In which case it should be fairly long lasting, disguise you as an animal really well (including to other animals and people with good Perception), and give all the relevant abilities of the animal (flight, swimming, senses, whatever). It does not need to be at all good in combat, and it doesn't need to allow spellcasting, but if it doesn't it should be a swift or even immediate action to change back to standard form.
2) Defensive Buff: In which case it should allow speech and spellcasting, and while it doesn't need to make you better in combat, it shouldn't make you worse, defensively at least. So armor needs to stay functional.
3) Offensive Buff: In which case it should either keep gear functional or give significant bonuses to offset the loss, and should give enough offensive bonuses to make going into melee practical. It probably shouldn't allow spellcasting.
There is no place for a useless Wildshape though. If you feel Druids get enough already, just remove Wildshape entirely and put Tome Polymorph on their list.
1) Utility Buff: In which case it should be fairly long lasting, disguise you as an animal really well (including to other animals and people with good Perception), and give all the relevant abilities of the animal (flight, swimming, senses, whatever). It does not need to be at all good in combat, and it doesn't need to allow spellcasting, but if it doesn't it should be a swift or even immediate action to change back to standard form.
2) Defensive Buff: In which case it should allow speech and spellcasting, and while it doesn't need to make you better in combat, it shouldn't make you worse, defensively at least. So armor needs to stay functional.
3) Offensive Buff: In which case it should either keep gear functional or give significant bonuses to offset the loss, and should give enough offensive bonuses to make going into melee practical. It probably shouldn't allow spellcasting.
There is no place for a useless Wildshape though. If you feel Druids get enough already, just remove Wildshape entirely and put Tome Polymorph on their list.