Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines 2

GreatGreyShrike · Post by **GreatGreyShrike** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:51 pm

Announcement trailer

Official website

Steam page

Coming Q1 2020. Written by the writer of the original VTMB, Brian Mitsoda, and Chris Avellone.

Finally Paradox is visisbly doing something real with the IP. VTMB was a game with great story & aesthetics, and mediocre gameplay, and a huge list of bugs and technical problems on release, which wasn't helped any by coming out on the same date as Half Life 2 and only a week after Halo 2. VTMB is still a cult favourite though, and for a reason - it was very unique and good. I'll be looking forward to see how this project turns out. It could still be a total trainwreck of course, but I'm at least cautiously optimistic so far.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:40 pm

I don't want more Bloodlines because I'm desperate to see what's happening in oWoD LA, I want more Bloodlines because it was really well made. Give the name to some random other team and it's just another vampire game. We don't get a ton of vampire games, so I'll keep my eye on them anyway, but I'm not super hopeful.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:03 pm

Chamomile wrote:I don't want more Bloodlines because I'm desperate to see what's happening in oWoD LA, I want more Bloodlines because it was really well made. Give the name to some random other team and it's just another vampire game. We don't get a ton of vampire games, so I'll keep my eye on them anyway, but I'm not super hopeful.

Brian Mitsoda is the narrative designer, and he was also the narrative designer for the original. Cara Ellison is a senior writer; she's shown in the past that she cares about the original and can write about it (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/0 ... es-part-1/). So it's not totally some random team, but it does seem ambiguous how many of the people working on the game are just random Hardsuit Labs grunts vs. people gathered by Mitsoda and/or Paradox. That being said, Mitsoda hasn't really done much since (I've never gotten around to playing Dead State, but it didn't seem to make a huge splash).

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:18 pm

Unlike all those Steam sales, I'll show more interest when the game actually exists. Or at the very least is more than "a fairly short trailer that is mostly just a collection of snippets from cut scenes".

shinimasu · Post by **shinimasu** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:01 pm

Chamomile wrote:I don't want more Bloodlines because I'm desperate to see what's happening in oWoD LA, I want more Bloodlines because it was really well made.

While I enjoyed the classic bloodlines as much as the next goth-curious teen when it came out, did we play the same game? Fun and engaging maybe but well made is a hell of a stretch considering that even with extensive fan patching and mod work it's a bugged up mess of a product.

I might concede on well written or aesthetically interesting but the original product was the worst of what rushed and/or inexperienced game design had to offer.

I am already not a fan of the first person only thing they seem to have going here, it's not really a camera angle that does well with engaging melee combat, but I guess we'll see.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:21 pm

shinimasu wrote:
Chamomile wrote:I don't want more Bloodlines because I'm desperate to see what's happening in oWoD LA, I want more Bloodlines because it was really well made.
While I enjoyed the classic bloodlines as much as the next goth-curious teen when it came out, did we play the same game?

Probably literally no. I played the game several years after release with extensive fan patches already applied, and noticed no significant bugs after several playthroughs. Anyway, if the same team were on the game again, then I'd be optimistic that the publisher would give them time for polish, since a lack thereof infamously marred the last title.

K · Post by K » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:44 am

Koumei wrote:Unlike all those Steam sales, I'll show more interest when the game actually exists. Or at the very least is more than "a fairly short trailer that is mostly just a collection of snippets from cut scenes".

The trailer is really giving me a "great for 90s, bad for now" vibe.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:15 am

And it is another Paradox Game.
Prepare yourself for frequent patches, mod support and DLC-Rain.

OPG · Post by **OPG** » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:02 pm

I never got all the hype for Bloodlines (I played it in the early 2010s and I tried to play it again a year ago). It had great atmosphere, but that was it. The writing was scattershot, the gameplay was a damn lie, and there was a whole lot of jank.

I'm not the biggest WoD nerd, but it'd be nice to see that made into a game that's actually relevant.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:45 am

I'm surprised that Bloodlines got this reputation while Alpha Protocol didn't. Both were janky, but I have better memories of Alpha Protocol both in terms of story and gameplay.

But I had a fun conversation with a STOP sign.

Iduno · Post by **Iduno** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:49 pm

Sure Bloodlines was a pile of bugs duct-taped together, but it was made for people who played WoD games. If you can make a WoD game playable, you've got enough mind caulk and cognitive dissonance to see Bloodlines as one of the greatest games ever.

Thaluikhain · Post by **Thaluikhain** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:45 pm

VTM:B was more or less my first introduction to WoD (beyond many years ago being vaguely aware of some other people at my high school that might have played it I think), and I liked that game. Gave me a somewhat warped idea of what WoD was normally like, though.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:18 pm

The farthest I ever got in bloodlines was the infini-sewer as a malkavian. And I just gotta say, I so loved the part where my malkie got to argue with a stop sign. Moments like that were why I remember the game fondly.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:45 pm

The Retro Hunter Outfit is just Blade's outfit.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:39 am

Blade wrote:I'm surprised that Bloodlines got this reputation while Alpha Protocol didn't.

Some of it comes down to tone. Bloodlines is far from perfect but one thing it doesn't have is an identity crisis. It's structured so you see can see most of the content on one playthrough plus the game is equal parts silly and pretentious, which makes it 100% on brand with what people expected from a Vampire game.

Alpha Protocol, on the other hand, was in many ways too ambitious for its own good. The dialogue options were partly modeled after the three JBs--Jack Bauer, Jason Bourne and James Bond and a surprising amount of small things change based on your choices. However, none of the matters if people quit a third of the way through because the action sucks and the dialog options they chose made Mike come across as an unlikable dingus.

Personally, I kinda liked Alpha Protocol in a lot of ways, but I fully embraced the gimmick where your handler implies that Mike just throws on various interpersonal hats based on what he thinks people want to hear. Playing the game is actually sorta fun that way since some characters call you on your bullshit and others don't.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:04 am

Whipstitch wrote:However, none of the matters if people quit a third of the way through because the action sucks and the dialog options they chose made Mike come across as an unlikable dingus.

Personally, I kinda liked Alpha Protocol in a lot of ways, but I fully embraced the gimmick where your handler implies that Mike just throws on various interpersonal hats based on what he thinks people want to hear. Playing the game is actually sorta fun that way since some characters call you on your bullshit and others don't.

My Mike was basically Archer and the game completely supported that. This is probably why I had no problem with "coming across as an unlikable dingus". It was glorious. Everyone hated me except for Steven Heck and SIE who loved me.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:54 pm

IMHO, Bloodlines attained a big cult status and Alpha Protocol attained only a small cult status is because Bloodlines came in with a pre-built audience. There are and were people who play or read or heard about Vampire the Masquerade and/or Kindred: the Embraced and they act as infection vectors for getting someone to talk about Bloodlines.

Alpha Protocol doesn't have that. It's not a part of a franchise or an existing setting. It's just this neat weird game that exists in the vacuum of Obsidian games that you'd only ever hear about if you were to start talking about someone's fifth most favorite Obsidian games or something equally obscure.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:19 pm

Blade wrote:
My Mike was basically Archer and the game completely supported that. This is probably why I had no problem with "coming across as an unlikable dingus". It was glorious. Everyone hated me except for Steven Heck and SIE who loved me.

Yeah, my reaction was "This is like if Archer wasn't funny." Granted, the tough guy stuff was often even goofier.

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:08 pm

So, here's some details about VTMB2:

It's going to be based on the V20 system. Okay, sure, that's great and all, it's arguably the most cleaned-up version of the rules.

You're playing a Thinblood with special "Thinblood powers". Uhh...

It's going to be more combat-focused than VTMB was. Which is a neat feat considering that 90% of the missions in VTMB were "Go here, kill people" or in one case, "Hang out in the cemetery and kill the risen dead".

Your Thinblood protagonist is going to get to "join a clan".

And since Thinbloods apparently just straight up burst into flames in sunlight, 100% of the game is going to take place at night.

I'm expecting a dumpster fire.

Thaluikhain · Post by **Thaluikhain** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:40 pm

RelentlessImp wrote:You're playing a Thinblood with special "Thinblood powers".

Huh?

RelentlessImp wrote:It's going to be more combat-focused than VTMB was.

Huh.

RelentlessImp wrote:Your Thinblood protagonist is going to get to "join a clan".

Huh, so you don't choose when creating a character, you pick one later on? Like joining a faction?

(VTM:B gave me a very warped idea about what V:TM was about, I thought there'd be much more shooting and hitting with fire axes and less emo and sex crimes. Also, the box art for VTM:B made me think there'd be more vampire schoolgirls involved, though admittedly there's only one in the pic)

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:02 pm

RelentlessImp wrote:You're playing a Thinblood with special "Thinblood powers". Uhh...

V5 Thinbloods have special Thinblood powers in form of Thinblood Alchemy. Thinblood Alchemy is the ability to make blood magic potions that either mimic normal vampire disciplines, or do random bullshit ranging from telekinesis to summoning mist to changing your sex.

Of course that doesn't mean VtM:B2 gives a single damn about V5 rules.

RelentlessImp wrote:Your Thinblood protagonist is going to get to "join a clan".

In V5 if a Thinblood diablerizes a normal vampire, they get their clan.

RelentlessImp wrote:And since Thinbloods apparently just straight up burst into flames in sunlight, 100% of the game is going to take place at night.

That was a thing for the entire history of VtM. In V5 a Thinblood can take a perk letting them be a daywalker, but they don't have to.

Personally, based on the trailer it seems to me like the game will be a Dishonored rip-off. It got me interested, but not interested enough to hunt for information or make a pre-order.

HereForOSSR · Post by **HereForOSSR** » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:22 am

Chamomile wrote:That being said, Mitsoda hasn't really done much since (I've never gotten around to playing Dead State, but it didn't seem to make a huge splash).

Dead State was... pretty good. It won't change your life but it might change your next few weeks. It had some pretty interesting characters and mechanics and it was cool how your leader's abilities mattered even though he was just one of twenty or so people who eventually ended up joining you.

Making interesting characters and having a good skill system are things BLoodlines 2 has to do very well indeed to be able to hold a candle to the original. I find this mildly encouraging.

RelentlessImp wrote:It's going to be more combat-focused than VTMB was. Which is a neat feat considering that 90% of the missions in VTMB were "Go here, kill people" or in one case, "Hang out in the cemetery and kill the risen dead".

Not even close. Let's take the quests in the first hub.

Astrolite - You can persuade, sneak, or fight some thugs to get the astrolite. Or you can just bust a window, grab it, and run. Can be maybe 60% combat by length if you only fight.

McGee - You follow the trail of a bounty hunter, and the last 3% or so of the quest by length is a fight against some normal human who can't put up a real fight.

Lily - Figure out where Lily went. Follow her trail, do some persuasion, do some exploring. No combat at all.

Knox - Go to some places and investigate some things. Culminates with a semi-boss fight which makes up maybe 2% of the quest length.

Ocean House - Go through an awesome hotel. Rather long mission, no fighting at all.

Slashterpiece - Getting into the building somehow, solve a simple puzzle, fight a thing. 10% combat by length.

Werewolf Blood/Trip - Persuade, sleuth, hack, or sneak your way into a hospital's off-limit places. If you suck at doing both of those things you'll get shot at and actually killing the one guy who can fight you is pointless, and if you want to kill him anyway you can take him down in seconds. 0-2% combat by length.

Diner - Ambush fight. Short mission but almost all fighting. Follows up with a dialogue section much longer than the diner mission itself.

Warehouse - Big mission, all fighting or sneaking.

And now let's go Downtown.

Hospital - Go through a spooky scary hospital to meet a spooky scary thing who tells you to do mean things. No combat unless you want to pick a fight with the mean thing because you don't like it, and it gets you nothing. Lets you trade some stuff after doing an errand. Unless you kill it, then you don't have that opportunity.

Meeting NPCs - Talk to some important leaders and listen to them. Or don't, and tell them they talk too much.

Patty - Find and kill a ghoul. Either OHKO or trick her into leaving.

Confession - First, talk to some assholes. Kill them or persuade them. Then, kill a more important asshole. You need to fight a bunch of goons if you want to get a nice item, but you can just assassinate the important asshole if you want. Realistically going to be 80% fighting probably, but it can be none if you really don't want to hurt the poor innocent Russian mobsters.

Plaguebearers - A very long quest that has some investigation and some boss fights. 20% fighting by length.

Elizabeth Dane - Go to a place to investigate a thing. Need some persuasion and sneakiness, you can fight but that's a waste of time and you get penalized for it. For lulz, realize that you can use the wonders of modern technology to look at stuff via cameras and skip almost all of the fighting/sneaking.

Traffik - Fight or sneak. You get a bonus for sneaking.

Grout - Medium length, almost all fighting.

Museum - Sneak around to get keys to get to places to get a thing. Don't kill anybody, because they're just beat cops and you'll get penalized for it. If you do want to kill them, at this point these regular cops are about the same threat level as the fossils on display.

~fin

Granted, player agency literally goes to shit when you have to swim around in the sewers and go through a terrible sewer dungeon to save some absolute asshole Nosferatu. And the whole end-game marathon of Leopold->Hallowbrook->Temple->Tower wears out it's welcome by the end of the Leopold segment.

Come to think of it, the only part of the game which I consider to not be great is the combat-heavy part at the end. If you have a reasonably well-built character nothing in the Temple or Tower is going to be any kind of credible threat to you at all. Point in case, the first form of the final boss makes a show of jumping down from a balcony theatrically before starting the fight... and if you have maxed firearms, celerity, and a Steyr Aug you can drop him to zero health before he even reaches the ground, ending the fight before it begins. Even if you just have max firearms and literally no disciplines you can kill his giganto-bat form in maybe ten seconds if you have good aim.

Huh. I think maybe the reason I like combat in Bloodlines as much as I do is that there's not actually very much of it, and when suddenly there is a lot of it things get stale fast. Hopefully if they continue in the direction of more combat they also make it better combat.