Move Based Deterministic Narrative Fighting Game

[Kaelik]

Move Based Fighting Game:

Each character is either an Old Master, a Young Prodigy, a Footsoldier, or a Worthless Grunt. PCs should not be Footsoldiers or Worthless Grunts.

Each character gets a certain number of Tokens at creation. Tokens are either Offense, Defense, or Special. You can allocate your total Tokens however you want between those three options at character creation. If a significant narrative event happens like the death of your best friend or master you can switch any number of tokens to any other type of token as you like. Your Tokens refresh at the start of every Scene.

Young Prodigies get 15 Tokens, Old Masters get 10. Footsoldiers get 7. Worthless Grunts get 3.

Each character also has Hit Points. An Old Master and a Footsoldier have 2. A Young Prodigy has 3. A Worthless Grunt has 1.

In the case of Social Conflict, instead Young Prodigies have 2. Footsoldiers have 1. Old Masters have 3. Worthless Grunts don't get to play.

Once reduced to Zero Hit Points, you “lose” the Social Conflict or Combat. Usually resulting in being Captured for Combats (unless your side wins without you), though when narratively appropriate, Death.

The standard resolution mechanic for any combat or social conflict is that a scene occurs to resolve the issue. Each Scene is a number of rounds until resolution is achieved. Each Round every character can choose to take a Move from the Moves they know and target it as appropriate. This process is open and everyone can change their mind until all characters agree on the current set of Moves. Then each player secretly decides how many tokens and which tokens they Bid on their move. You can Bid any number of any kind of tokens you want.

Most commonly, Bids will be opposed. If you declare a target for your move and your target declares you as a target or uses a Defensive Move, then your Move is Opposed. A Defensive Move Opposes all Attack and Special Moves targeting that character and two Attack or Special Moves from two characters aimed at each other Oppose each other. All Opposition is reciprocal.

All the Bids are revealed and all moves do what they do on the resolution. A Move has a Bid equal to the total number of Tokens you Bid, unless the Move modifies some tokens.

The main things that happens are:

In a combat, beyond what special effects a Move does, each Attack or Special Move that has a higher Bid then any opposition causes one Hit Point of damage to each target with a lower opposition Bid. A Defensive Move with a higher Bid then the opposition allows the user to Escape the Scene. THIS IS OPTIONAL. YOU ARE NOT FORCED TO ESCAPE. YOU ARE ALLOWED TO ESCAPE. IF YOU WANT. Escaping involves “losing” whatever the main conflict of the Scene was unless the main conflict was to kill them personally in which case they do win by running and living.

A Social Conflict also has Attack, Special, and Defense moves, but they mean slightly different things, in that a social conflict at worst creates a new Scene with a Combat, but more commonly results in a loss of face or losing an argument, but escape is much less necessary and you probably don't get killed or captured from losing almost all the time. So Social Moves are a lot less aggressive.

Additionally, each time you take a Hit, you lose access to one of your moves chosen at random for the rest of the scene.

Each character is created with a certain number of moves based on their type.

Worthless Grunts: Worthless Grunts get special options to Attack and Defend, that are Moves but with no modifiers.
Footsoldiers: 3 Combat, 1 Social.
Young Prodigy: 5 Combat, 3 Social.
Old Master: 8 Combat, 5 Social, 1 Ultimate Technique.

Each Move is a specific named thing that fits with your overall theme. Your theme can change over time, but you want to be able to answer the question of what your theme is at all times. Once you decide what the move is, decide whether it is Attack, Defense, or Special.

Attack Moves target opponents and do damage. Defense moves target yourself or allies and do not do damage. Special Moves are Attacks which can choose the Special Modifier, but can't be used in the First round of any Scene, and a character can only use one Special per Scene.

After that, Moves get to pick ONE of the below modifiers that they apply. Ultimate Techniques are also Attack, Defense, or Special, but they get to choose TWO of the below modifiers.

Defense Only:
Defense Targets yourself and up to 4 Allies.
Defense Tokens Count as 3 Bid each instead of 1.

Offense:
Offense Tokens Count as 2 Bid each instead of 1.
Targets up to 3 Enemies.
Attacks Target(s) again next round with the same Bid.

Special:
Special Tokens Count as 5 Bid each instead of 1.

Social Conflict Moves are described very differently, but for the purpose of resolving Social Conflicts do the same things. You just might Leverage Your Noble Status to Defend in a social conflict instead of using “Ice Wall”.



Improving characters:

Characters might improve in many ways. If you have an artifact, it might give you one or more tokens related to the artifact. In extreme cases an artifact might allow it's weilder to do a specific move with it.

Characters may also learn new moves. They can also gain new tokens, though token differences should be consistent with the genre you are playing in. Which might be very small, or very large.

As an alternative advancement, characters may have Tiers and advance in Tiers. Tiers provide an automatic bid equal to the difference between the Tiers of the opposition x2 to every move and a higher Tier character automatically opposes the attacks of lower Tier characters if not with a move with a defense. This is obviously a significant change from the normal rules, and only applies in the case of specific genres.

[Hicks]

Ok. So moves can literally be anything. But I kinda feel that Defense being a disengagement means that the attack modifier does damage again the next round feels underwhelming. There is no stand and take it, because 2 or 3 hits ends the fight unless you just (successfully) end the fight with a defensive move. Honestly I may be overvaluing targets three enemies because if you're outnumbered i feel like even the young Prodigy is just going to fail/die. I feel that due to the nature of assigned bid *pools* existing that limiting special attacks to 1/encounter is unessisary, as literally every encounter should be resolved in at most 3 turns, and like... You're going to run out of tokens to bid and at most they'll only ever do 1 hit no matter how high their number gets; to overmatch a bid 4 special attack (which can only have x5 modifier) you'd have to oppose it with a bid 7 x3 offensive or defensive modifier...and like... that is a crazy high bid with token pools being so split and so low.

But that only matters in a one on one confrontation. While a player is limited to one character their opposing may be legion. And unopposed attacks just do damage and it always takes at least 2 hits to take out one opposition. It is difficult for me to excel out an answer... but it looks like the game is *dont* be outnumbered.

2 HP
7 tokens (4 attack, 3 Defense)

Combat Moves
Aim for the Head: Attack, bid x2
Spray and Pray: Attack, targets 3 enemies
Cheese It!: Defense 1, bid x3

Social Moves
Heckle: attack, targets 3 enemies

3 HP
15 tokens (4 attack, 3 Defense, 8 special)

Combat Moves
Firebolt: Attack, bid x2
Fireball: Attack, targets 3 enemies
Teleport: Defense 1, bid x3
Soul Pyre: Special, bid x5
Soul Pyre 2, Pyratic Boogaloo: Special, bid x5

Social Moves
Force of personality: attack, bid x3
Lead the conversation: attack, targets 3 enemies
Talk to the hand: Defense, bid x3

[Hicks]

I also don't know when u get your tokens back... which just makes Mook swarms more powerful imho.

[Kaelik]

I also don't know when u get your tokens back... which just makes Mook swarms more powerful imho.

The intention is for it to be per scene.

But yes, a whole lot of Grunts would be a problem, you probably aren't supposed to fight that many grunts? I guess it matters what genre you are thinking of, but the genre I am thinking of is Xianxia or maybe Wuxia, and you generally aren't supposed to be fighting that many people weaker then you without area attacks.

But I guess there should be another level below worthless grunt which will require worthless grunts beint renamed.

[Kaelik]

Ok. So moves can literally be anything. But I kinda feel that Defense being a disengagement means that the attack modifier does damage again the next round feels underwhelming. There is no stand and take it, because 2 or 3 hits ends the fight unless you just (successfully) end the fight with a defensive move.

It only ends the fight by you losing, so I mean, yeah peope can run away and lose, but that's usually a bad thing for them. If people run away from you, that's a win, you won the scene and accomplished your goal!

Honestly I may be overvaluing targets three enemies because if you're outnumbered i feel like even the young Prodigy is just going to fail/die. I feel that due to the nature of assigned bid *pools* existing that limiting special attacks to 1/encounter is unessisary, as literally every encounter should be resolved in at most 3 turns, and like... You're going to run out of tokens to bid and at most they'll only ever do 1 hit no matter how high their number gets; to overmatch a bid 4 special attack (which can only have x5 modifier) you'd have to oppose it with a bid 7 x3 offensive or defensive modifier...and like... that is a crazy high bid with token pools being so split and so low.

I mean the reason is because if you could use your special an infinite number of times, you might just have nothing but special tokens! If you could special every time, then you could special, and every token you build is worth 5 times as much as other people's tokens. Or MAYBE 2.5 times as much if they always get to use all their offense and defense tokens just right, but that's unlikely.

I forgot to write any penalty at all for taking hits before zero, which I intended to, but even with the kind of moderate penalty I was thinking of, it still could just be that you take 1 hit bidding zero on the first round and then all your tokens are x5 from then on. Where a group of people has one Old Master with Ultimate Technique on AOE defense special and everyone else taking attack specials.

Even aside from that specialization, x5ing token is pretty good!

But that only matters in a one on one confrontation. While a player is limited to one character their opposing may be legion. And unopposed attacks just do damage and it always takes at least 2 hits to take out one opposition. It is difficult for me to excel out an answer... but it looks like the game is *dont* be outnumbered.

I mean you definitely shouldn't be 10 guys at once alone. I think this is my fault for not using the flavor of name that indicated what I'm talking about, but if you are fighting a number of worthless grunts that has more tokens then you and more actions then you and more HP then you, then yeah, they should win!

I'm not sure we are thinking of the same things at all here though, because you have decided to give your sample grunts assault rifles instead of spears for their AoE attacks, which is not generally the genres I was attempting to provide support for.

[Kaelik]

There's I've specified the Scene refresh and also created a fourth level so that people can have a bunch of guys who shoot arrows but don't rise to the level of "person who gets dunked on to show the main character is cool."

[Hicks]

I mean the reason is because if you could use your special an infinite number of times, you might just have nothing but special tokens! If you could special every time, then you could special, and every token you build is worth 5 times as much as other people's tokens. Or MAYBE 2.5 times as much if they always get to use all their offense and defense tokens just right, but that's unlikely.

I forgot to write any penalty at all for taking hits before zero, which I intended to, but even with the kind of moderate penalty I was thinking of, it still could just be that you take 1 hit bidding zero on the first round and then all your tokens are x5 from then on. Where a group of people has one Old Master with Ultimate Technique on AOE defense special and everyone else taking attack specials.

Even aside from that specialization, x5ing token is pretty good!

Ok. So I graphed out the Young Prodigy vs Foot Soldier match up. Combat doesn't last more than 3 rounds. By round 3 there is a decisively determinative victor. In the example character, it is assumed that the Young Prodigy has 2 different special attacks, and while they can be named different things this doesn't matter as the x5 effect means that a pool of 8 special can be split into two bids of 4... which become 2 bids of 20, which would require a defensive bid (x3) of at least 7 to escape, or an offensive bid (x2) of at least 10... neither of those are sustainable or even practical. Thus means that deterministically have 2 special attacks and a majority of tokens to put into the Special Pool to expend independently in round 2 and 3 or die/flee in a 1v1.

I'm not sure we are thinking of the same things at all here though, because you have decided to give your sample grunts assault rifles instead of spears for their AoE attacks, which is not generally the genres I was attempting to provide support for.

I mean The Matrix is Wuxia, but the names of the moves are irrelevant. Spray and Pray or Typhoon Fist, The Matrix or Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, the point is that the attack has up to 3 targets and Defensive moves that would cover you from multiple spread attacks incoming in a group battle remove you from the fight. I'll have to recheck the move declination rules, because having a Target 3 attack looks to be critical due to 4 v 4 fights causing a minimum of 3 unopposed damage... and you can't even cover your allies or *any* other ally with a defensive move without removing you and them from the fight.

I guess my critique is how determinate token bids are. *If* you wanted to add randomness, having the tokens be d6 that are bid to be rolled and totaled up instead of static all or nothing bids may be a way to inject uncertainty... or not. Because not everything has to be uncertain. I just worry that in a small game there just *is* a correct response, and obfuscating that would increase options with added risk, and the pools of rolled dice are going to not be unwieldy large due to the nature of allocating dice to bids which do not refresh until the next scene.

[Hicks]

But in response to this point: you *cant* use your special an infinite number of times. You can't use *anything* an infinite number of times. At the extreme end a player of a Young Prodigy can do a *maximum* of 14 things per scene... but they will never get the chance be cause to do so means bid 1 each time, fail, and get absolutely bodied by round 3. Scenes literally can't last more than 3 rounds of actions if bids are being placed by the participants to win... which will happen deterministically during at most the third round of conflict.

[Kaelik]

I mean the reason is because if you could use your special an infinite number of times, you might just have nothing but special tokens! If you could special every time, then you could special, and every token you build is worth 5 times as much as other people's tokens. Or MAYBE 2.5 times as much if they always get to use all their offense and defense tokens just right, but that's unlikely.

I forgot to write any penalty at all for taking hits before zero, which I intended to, but even with the kind of moderate penalty I was thinking of, it still could just be that you take 1 hit bidding zero on the first round and then all your tokens are x5 from then on. Where a group of people has one Old Master with Ultimate Technique on AOE defense special and everyone else taking attack specials.

Even aside from that specialization, x5ing token is pretty good!

Ok. So I graphed out the Young Prodigy vs Foot Soldier match up. Combat doesn't last more than 3 rounds. By round 3 there is a decisively determinative victor. In the example character, it is assumed that the Young Prodigy has 2 different special attacks, and while they can be named different things this doesn't matter as the x5 effect means that a pool of 8 special can be split into two bids of 4... which become 2 bids of 20, which would require a defensive bid (x3) of at least 7 to escape, or an offensive bid (x2) of at least 10... neither of those are sustainable or even practical. Thus means that deterministically have 2 special attacks and a majority of tokens to put into the Special Pool to expend independently in round 2 and 3 or die/flee in a 1v1.

I'm not sure we are thinking of the same things at all here though, because you have decided to give your sample grunts assault rifles instead of spears for their AoE attacks, which is not generally the genres I was attempting to provide support for.

I mean The Matrix is Wuxia, but the names of the moves are irrelevant. Spray and Pray or Typhoon Fist, The Matrix or Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, the point is that the attack has up to 3 targets and Defensive moves that would cover you from multiple spread attacks incoming in a group battle remove you from the fight. I'll have to recheck the move declination rules, because having a Target 3 attack looks to be critical due to 4 v 4 fights causing a minimum of 3 unopposed damage... and you can't even cover your allies or *any* other ally with a defensive move without removing you and them from the fight.

I guess my critique is how determinate token bids are. *If* you wanted to add randomness, having the tokens be d6 that are bid to be rolled and totaled up instead of static all or nothing bids may be a way to inject uncertainty... or not. Because not everything has to be uncertain. I just worry that in a small game there just *is* a correct response, and obfuscating that would increase options with added risk, and the pools of rolled dice are going to not be unwieldy large due to the nature of allocating dice to bids which do not refresh until the next scene.

Hicks, You seem to keep saying that attack 3 moves are mandatory, but also, separately, that everything should be in Special and you should just use specials. Those are contradictory points! You can't do both of those things!

Also, "and you can't even cover your allies or *any* other ally with a defensive move without removing you and them from the fight." Why do you think this?

[Hicks]

A Defensive Move with a higher Bid then the opposition allows the user to Escape the Scene, but escaping involves “losing” whatever the main conflict of the Scene was unless the main conflict was to kill them personally in which case they do win by running and living.

To me it seems to say that if your defensive bid is greater than attackers, you nope out, and if it isn't, you git hit for -1 HP. So either you take damage or flee. Is there is a third option, like... not fleeing and preventing damage? Because if so I'm misinterpreting this.

[Kaelik]

A Defensive Move with a higher Bid then the opposition allows the user to Escape the Scene, but escaping involves “losing” whatever the main conflict of the Scene was unless the main conflict was to kill them personally in which case they do win by running and living.

To me it seems to say that if your defensive bid is greater than attackers, you nope out, and if it isn't, you git hit for -1 HP. So either you take damage or flee. Is there is a third option, like... not fleeing and preventing damage? Because if so I'm misinterpreting this.

Allows the user is permissive, it doesn't force the user to flee.

[Omegonthesane]

A Defensive Move with a higher Bid then the opposition allows the user to Escape the Scene, but escaping involves “losing” whatever the main conflict of the Scene was unless the main conflict was to kill them personally in which case they do win by running and living.

To me it seems to say that if your defensive bid is greater than attackers, you nope out, and if it isn't, you git hit for -1 HP. So either you take damage or flee. Is there is a third option, like... not fleeing and preventing damage? Because if so I'm misinterpreting this.

each Attack or Special Move that has a higher Bid then any opposition causes one Hit Point of damage to each target with a lower opposition Bid

To me, the wording here implies that if you win or tie a round with a Defensive move, you do not receive damage, because the opponent's Attack did not have a higher bid than your Defend. Conversely, the only benefit you get from winning a Defend outright is that you are allowed to forfeit the encounter in return for removing the risk to your hit points, which is "instant victory" if your enemy's objective was to kill you and your objective was not to kill your enemy, and "instant defeat" at any other time.

[erik]

I was plotting out optimal outcomes for a duel of an old master and young prodigy...

YP opens with an Attack 4 x2 (with the intent that opponent either runs away with Defense 3, or wastes 4 tokens to tie or 5 to win, or they lose 1 HP with 0 tokens spent, they cannot afford to lose 1st round since YP can bully them with 11 tokens vs 10 needing only 1 more hit). If a tie round 1, OM also spends 4 on attack x2.
Round 2a (OM: 2 HP, 6 tokens, 9 moves; YP: 3 HP, 11 tokens, 5 moves)
YP can bid 5 pts for their 1 special to get 25 pts. If OM skips this round then they are down to 1 HP and 6 tokens vs. YP's 6 tokens.
Round 3a (OM: 1 HP, 6 tokens, 8 moves; YP: 3 HP, 6 tokens, 4 moves available)
OM can now bid 3 tokens for their ultimate repeat special to deal 15 pts, knowing that the best YP can deal is 12 damage via a 2x attack.
Round 4a (OM: 1 HP, 3 tokens, 7 moves; YP: 2 HP, 6 tokens, 3 moves available)
The repeat damage hits and YP cannot beat it still, they save their tokens.
Round 5a (OM: 1 HP, 3 tokens, 7 moves; YP: 1 HP, 6 tokens, 2 moves available)
OM uses their other special with 3 remaining tokens, for the finishing blow.

So back to round 2, YP needs to bid lower than 5 clearly.
Round 2b (OM: 2 HP, 6 tokens, 9 moves; YP: 3 HP, 11 tokens, 5 moves)
YP bids 4 pts on their 1 special to get 20 pts. If OM skips this round they are down to 1 HP and 6 tokens vs. YP's 7 tokens. Same scenario plays out with OM doing 3x 15 pt attacks in a row for the win.

Round 2c (OM: 2 HP, 6 tokens, 8 moves; YP: 3 HP, 11 tokens, 5 moves)
YP bids 3 on their 1 special to get 15 pts. If OM skips this round they are down to 1 HP and 6 tokens vs. YP's 8 tokens. Now YP has enough that they can deal 16 pts of damage, enough to beat one of the 3 bid specials for a win! Let's see how that goes.
Round 3c (OM: 1 HP, 6 tokens, 7 moves; YP: 3 HP, 6 tokens, 4 moves available)
OM must now bid 4 tokens for their ultimate repeat special to deal 20 pts, knowing that the best YP can deal is 16 damage via a 2x attack. The damage hits and YP cannot beat it, they save their tokens.
Round 4c (OM: 1 HP, 2 tokens, 7 moves; YP: 2 HP, 6 tokens, 3 moves available)
The repeat damage hits and YP cannot beat it still, they save their tokens.
Round 5c (OM: 1 HP, 2 tokens, 7 moves; YP: 1 HP, 6 tokens, 2 moves available)
OM can bid 2 special for 10 pts, but loses to a 6 bid attack. YP wins.
(earlier I had this being different because I was allowing YP to do more than 1 special, and also was making used attacks disappear as if they were expired after use)

So right now if YP opens with a 4 bid 2x attack they win if OM passes round 1, and they win if OM ties round 1.

What if OM spends 5 to win round 1?
Then we get
Round 2d (OM: 2 HP, 5 tokens, 9 moves; YP: 2 HP, 11 tokens, 4 moves)
YP bids 3 on their special for 15 pts. What if OM counters with their ultimate repeat special at 4 tokens? OM wins this round and are unbeatable next round as well. So YP has to spend more.
YP bids 4 on their special for 20 pts. OM can use their ultimate repeat at 5 tokens and win the next two.
YP bids 5 on their special for 20 pts. OM can use their ultimate repeat at 5 tokens to tie one, win the next, but then lose to any repeat attacks that YP has. So on a 5 bid by YP then OM can skip this round and use their repeat special next round for the win.
So this scenario will come down to a guessing game.
YP bids 6 on their special for 30 pts. If OM uses their ultimate repeat for 5 tokens then they lose because YP can afford to lose the next round, and they have tokens to win the round after. If OM skips this round then they can use their ultimate repeat for the win.
So YP cannot use their special for a guaranteed win. Can OM split their points between a repeat special and the regular special for the win?
If OM uses repeating special for 3 bid, that's 15 pts, as above YP would have to bid at least 5 on their special, which results in a guessing game again.

What if YP uses a piddly 1 bid 2x attack?
If OM uses their repeat ultimate special at 5 bid then YP takes another hit, but will win after. If OM uses a 1 bid special, then YP doesn't have enough points to stop a 4 bid repeat special.
So guessing game again.

Which takes it all back to the start. OM has to decide. Do I spend 5 pts on the open to have a chance of beating a 4 bid? If they bid 4 and I don't bid at least 5, I lose. If I do bid 5, I've got maybe a 50/50 chance if I am clever.
YP will have to decide. Does OM know that they have to bid 5 to have a chance of winning? Should I bid 6 to crush them? But if they realize I'm going to bid 6 then it actually becomes possible for them to skip first round since it leaves the totals as 9 vs. their 10, and I might lose.



So you get a little guessing game at the start, and if they go with the optimal 4 bid YP vs. 5 bid OM then it results in another guessing game a little further down the line. So actually much more balanced than I initially expected (I thought YP would just blow OM out of the water due to having 50% more health and 50% more attack output, but OM has a special route to efficiency via potentially 3x special attacks).

[Kaelik]

Uh... Well the first thing is that at character creation you have to decide what all your tokens are. So you have to a specific number of Attack, Defense, and Special Tokens.

You can't interchangably have both 4 and 5 Attack Tokens on round 1 and also have all special tokens on round 2 and 3.

You have to, at character creation, either have 4 attack tokens or 5 attack tokens, and if you have 5 that cuts into your special tokens later.

Also The Ultimate Technique REPEATING can get you double power for your Special Tokens, but it is not intended for an Old Master to Special on round 2, and then special again on round 3. The Ultimate Technique if it is a special, is still subject to the Special once per character per scene rule.

Ultimate Techniques can also be a non special attack, if you want to have a repeating x2 Attack that you use every round you aren't specialing, or whatever.

[erik]

Ah, so several misconceptions leaves my analysis void. The Schroedinger's token assignment was intentional tho since I was intending to see if there was a line of attack where one or the other could guarantee victory even against perfect hard-counters. With defense it actually becomes more nebulous tho.

[Whipstitch]

this games sounds fun just because I'd be 1000% in on the theme but also feels like it'd be the single greatest way to demonstrate that I can't actually handle the most basic logic in the moment rather than in chargen.