Chopping Block: Tome Samurai

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:00 am

As a relative novice (taking a crash course in Tome-ology playtesting everyday and the such) I've noticed some discrepancy from power of the Samurai
vs. Fighter
vs. Barbarian etc...

The first thing that triggered was the capstone which ... was like a non-ability in a way but really... Frank doesn't even care its level 20 and you know, thats like a point at which things don't exist anyway so whatever.

Still though I started playing as a samurai through some "firefights" ala odst basically various gauntlets of monsters but I get my powers recharged periodically after so many waves.

and what occured to me was... Why am I not just playing a fighter.

It's level 5 and I"m taking the same feats for shiggles and I'm just like even with me using a scythe having the ability to pull a feat whenever is really good.
Active defense is great.
I can't stand Commune at level 5/Speak with dead at level 5, Mostly because its a once per day ability that pales pretty bad when compared to getting all knowldges and the skill points to power them like the fighter does.

Moreover, the book of gears stats that all magic weapons should be scaling 1/3 level round up No Cap where as ancestral weapon is the same thing maxing out at +5.

So I'm of a mind to think that this isn't power creep but simple reaplication of the newest ruleset.
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I'd like to suggest some changes but I'm not really there yet experiencewise but here's what I think so far.

1. Ancestral weapon: We know it scales to 1/3 round up, its also unbreakable as long as the samurai is "alive" and/or "conscious" There are assholes out there still using sunder and last night I had someone use a greater rust monster (unique) against me and really samurai don't need that shit.
A: Loses ghost touch property: Deals Force damage as a non action as the samurai choses.
This is so he can do things like kill swarms and oozes, and of course he can still smack ghosts. Oh and this is (Ex) some awesome pressurizing technique they've learned
B. Floating Minor Ability. You can as a swift action Enhance you're weapon with whatever: Minor abiities at low levels, a major and a minor at high levels. (dont' worry its the ancestors doing it, really) You can do this once per encounter Last a number of rounds = bab.

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Level 5:
I'm going to save everyone a whole lot of frusttation and dipping by saying at level 5 when you get commune? You also get a fighting style chosen from the monks fighting styles chart. This way we stop seeing every samurai build starting off "Monk1/SamuraiiX"
I tussled with giving the Combat style feat but this seems much better as frank did such good work on the monk abilities that every samurai build wants them.
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Most other things seem fine really. hmm....

Here... add this to level 20 along with the treatise
Shogun:(Ex): The samurai is constanly under the effects of a Sactuary spell DC= 1/2 Hd + Charisma or wisdom which ever is higher.
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These are my preliminary thoughts, mind you. I maybe way off also, the samurai may well be exactly= to Barb/Fight, maybe not.

What say you to these things?

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:20 am

Samurai is actually pretty in line with Barbarian, Monk, and the other TOME classes. It's Fighter that isn't. Samurai is actually toward the stronger end of all the tome classes besides Fighter. It is kind of front loaded though.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:26 am

ubernoob wrote:Samurai is actually pretty in line with Barbarian, Monk, and the other TOME classes. It's Fighter that isn't. Samurai is actually toward the stronger end of all the tome classes besides Fighter. It is kind of front loaded though.

I would disagree. I would say Samurai are the only Tome class that really plays kinda shitty. Not as interesting as the Monk. Has to many per days and not enough at wills. And doesn't really impressively out damage a Barbarian.

If RTAs were even half as prevalent as saves, it might look more impressive. But Barbarians are immune to everything with a saving throw, and Samurais are immune to everything with a RTA but it costs AoOs that they can use for other stuff. Barb gets the better deal.

I'd say:

Fighter
Barb
_
Monk
Samurai

in power, and Samurai is the least interesting too.

God_of_Awesome · Post by **God_of_Awesome** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:58 am

Hey could I play a Samurai as a fighter, flavor-wise? Could you rename some of the abilities, slap 'Fighter' on the cover and some other minimal work and noone would notice a damn thing?

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:10 am

God_of_Awesome wrote:Hey could I play a Samurai as a fighter, flavor-wise? Could you rename some of the abilities, slap 'Fighter' on the cover and some other minimal work and noone would notice a damn thing?

or vice versa yeah. . .
Though that much is always obvious reflavoring is never really an issue.

I'm just considering a slight rebalancing to keep them inline. I'm also thinking the commune ability should be usable more than once perday or later give you shit like ... I don't know Legend lore or some such. I have no idea. It'd just be nice to see it scale abit though that might be one of those things thats way powerful in some peoples games near worthless in others. I dont' like that trade off really but, que sera sera .

What do you think about the tenative suggestions?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:23 am

Kaelik wrote:If RTAs were even half as prevalent as saves,

What are RTAs, again?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:50 am

Koumei wrote:
Kaelik wrote:If RTAs were even half as prevalent as saves,
What are RTAs, again?

Ranged Touch Attacks. IE, the things that the Barbarians automatic success on all saving throws doesn't protect him against, but parry magic does work against.

Also, the part where he only gets it at 8, when the Barbarian works his way up to total save immunity at level 5...

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:20 am

The samaurai has more burst damage than the barbarian at every level if TWF with Heavy Picks, and more average damage than the barbarian at level 11+. The samaurai is fine; building up to 22 attacks (18 starting dex ending at 35, bab of +20, TWF with two magic heavy picks of speed; 12 of the attacks auto-critting for x7 damage) every round is underpowered? Even I can't complain about that!

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:34 am

Hicks wrote:The samaurai has more burst damage than the barbarian at every level if TWF with Heavy Picks, and more average damage than the barbarian at level 11+. The samaurai is fine; building up to 22 attacks (18 starting dex ending at 35, bab of +20, TWF with two magic heavy picks of speed; 12 of the attacks auto-critting for x7 damage) every round is underpowered? Even I can't complain about that!

Except that's one round. And now you used all your per day abilities. And that's one single enemy. So if you are facing, I don't know, four encounters, each of which has more than one enemy. And those enemies are forcing saves against Daze or Stun, or grappling your face...

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:04 am

I think that one x7 crit will drop an enemy, 1d6+10 (Dex)+12 (Blitz)+4 (Weapon)+2 (Combat School)+2 (Bloodsteel)+ 1 (Subtle Cut)=34x7=238 (No DR and this is without power attack) you would get other attacks on top as well. I think you wouldn't have any trouble pulling your own weight.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:55 am

Akula wrote:I think that one x7 crit will drop an enemy, 1d6+10 (Dex)+12 (Blitz)+4 (Weapon)+2 (Combat School)+2 (Bloodsteel)+ 1 (Subtle Cut)=34x7=238 (No DR and this is without power attack) you would get other attacks on top as well. I think you wouldn't have any trouble pulling your own weight.

The issue being that you only get to attack one enemy with those 22 attacks. You seriously don't get to attack other people with 75% of them.

Ignoring the whole, Char Op, let's start talking about level 20 for no reason.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:06 pm

Right. Kaelik, has what I'm seeing kind of spot on.
I mean I know its hard to sometimes look objectively at this.

The samaurai has more burst damage than the barbarian at every level if TWF with Heavy Picks, and more average damage than the barbarian at level 11+.

This should illustrate the problem actually "if twf with Heavy picks." is too narrow an area of gameplay as most samurai probbably shouldn't be forced to do that or be inferior at levels 1-9 AND 11+

Except that's one round. And now you used all your per day abilities. And that's one single enemy. So if you are facing, I don't know, four encounters, each of which has more than one enemy. And those enemies are forcing saves against Daze or Stun, or grappling your face...

This is kind of similar to the situation I've encountered.
I can Explode on a monster but It's not quite balancing out compared to the other classes.
Suggestions?

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:07 pm

Kaelik wrote:The issue being that you only get to attack one enemy with those 22 attacks. You seriously don't get to attack other people with 75% of them.

You said that the Samurai would be expending almost all of their daily resources to keep up with a Barbarian. My comment was just pointing out that they don't actually have to do that.

Ignoring the whole, Char Op, let's start talking about level 20 for no reason.

Level 12, which is still quite high granted.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:01 am

Akula wrote:You said that the Samurai would be expending almost all of their daily resources to keep up with a Barbarian. My comment was just pointing out that they don't actually have to do that.

No, what I said was that in Hick's specific example of 7 crits that would be a days worth of crits, and no more left for the other 3.5 encounters.

Akula wrote:
Ignoring the whole, Char Op, let's start talking about level 20 for no reason.
Level 12, which is still quite high granted.

Once again, Hick's level 20 build of 35 Dex.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:54 am

Okay so... we can't address the problem without confiming that there is one? Is thats whats going on here?

Okay ... this: Take the fighter. Chose horde breaker and whirlwind and whatever other feats you chose naturally. Lets say hobgoblin as race as Frank often portrays the Hobgobline Khanate as his samurai.
Look at level 5.
Look at level 10
Look at level 16
there's a lot of traction there yeah but ultimately You're winning at every point by being a fighter instead.
...................
If NOTHING else you have to stop and agree that the book of gears rules make the Ancestral weapon.... require reexamination.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:11 am

That's the fighter being overpowered, not the samurai being underpowered Midnight. You can say the same thing for the barbarian and the monk too.

God_of_Awesome · Post by **God_of_Awesome** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:55 am

I think the whole 'uses native weapon' thing is dumb. Mostly because my dearly departed Fighter is no longer viable and I need to use the Samurai to fill that sword shaped hole in my heart.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:07 pm

Well have an entitlment to that opinion sure.

However, that particular bit of fluff ... well play a fucking human. Who can thoretically call whatever they want as a weapon (because humans secretly have all cultures or no cultures all at the same time... its amazing) So you know good luck with that.

Okay so someone suggested that Commune follow the wildshape progression.

1/day level 5
2/day level 6
3/day level 7
level 8 = New ability
4/day level 10
Level 11 = New ability
Level 12 = New ability

but with not new abilities cause communing is freaking house. So...
I'll propose some new abilities that are nice but not giving out keys to another house.
Ancestral guidance.
Level 8 +3 insight bonus to initiative (does not stack with danger sense)
Level 11 may reroll any d20 result once per encounter (this is a on
Level 12 my reroll any d20 with an addition +3 luck bonus to the result
And so on but the advancment would be like....
Next you get 2 rerolls per encounter
then you'd get the rerolls with +6. An the power stops advancing.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:04 pm

If NOTHING else you have to stop and agree that the book of gears rules make the Ancestral weapon.... require reexamination.

I could agree to that.

Honestly I think that people go overboard with crazy a lot of the time. The Tome stuff is seriously intended to be slotted into a game where people are expecting you to fight Gorgons and the Wizard remembers that he knows charm monster and solid fog. I don't really know where people get into Colossal Gauntlets and crap, because those are objects larger than a human and there's nothing anywhere that I am aware of that would allow that to fly.

But yes, the Samurai was intended as a guy who dishes out large enough damage that he can be the star sometimes even when his allies know cloud kill. And from what I've seen, he does that. Now there are some things I would have done differently, but in general I see him performing his tasks pretty well.

I think in light of where we were going with BoG items that eventually the Ancestral Weapon would have gotten an overhaul. And I would like it if the mid-level Samurai gave better encouragement for using a high threat weapon or a high damage die weapon (like a scimitar or a katana respectively) rather than being so focused on high crit multiplier weapons (like picks). But it also doesn't really seem like a big deal, because last I checked people weren't desperately unhappy to have a Samurai in their party even when the Cleric has access to wall of stone.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:49 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:And I would like it if the mid-level Samurai gave better encouragement for using a high threat weapon or a high damage die weapon (like a scimitar or a katana respectively) rather than being so focused on high crit multiplier weapons (like picks).

Why not multiply the weapon die/dice regardless of the critical hit factor? Sort of like what 4E does. I thought that idea was pretty okay.

If you really want to divorce it from critical hit damage you could just make it 'bonus damage', but that's getting pretty mathy. Still, I think it does make people gravitate for greatswords and axes rather than picks.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:07 pm

+W mechanics add:

3.5 damage for a Pick
4.5 damage for an axe
4.5 damage for a longsword
5 damage for a spiked chain
5.5 damage for a katana
6.5 damage for greataxe
7 damage for greatsword

Die maximizer mechanics add:

2.5 damage for a pick
3 damage for spiked chain
3.5 damage for an axe
3.5 damage for longsword
4.5 damage for katana
5 damage for greatsword
5.5 damage for greataxe

+Maximized W adds:
6 damage for pick
8 damage for axe
8 damage for spiked chain
8 damage for longsword
10 damage for katana
12 damage for greatsword
12 damage for great axe

The latter 2 seem like they have a good spread.

-Username17

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:08 pm

Testing....
[edit]Seems like something about my next post shrank the thread anyone else gettiing that?

[edit] Ahh... fixed.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:11 pm

I could agree to that.

Sooo... the Creator speaks.

But yes, the Samurai was intended as a guy who dishes out large enough damage that he can be the star sometimes even when his allies know cloud kill. And from what I've seen, he does that. Now there are some things I would have done differently, but in general I see him performing his tasks pretty well.

No. No, I think you did a great job on it honestly. The real comparison I found myself making was a Book of Gears fighter w/ a magic weapon.
The 2 classes were so similar because they get a similar bonus feat progression.
There are things I didn't understand (and don't understand, nor does anyone who I've been playing with) several things like why the Samurai gets a d8, and less skills than a fighter. Why play a samurai instead of a fighter or barbarian or honestly for efficacy we could add the Tome MONK into that mix as well since amlost every build I see is the aforementioned Monkurai or whatever.
However... we've been testing at low levels honestly. Today we're testing level 10 ish for the 1st time.

I don't really know where people get into Colossal Gauntlets and crap,

Uhmm... yeah I hear people do that and I... don't really know where thats coming from. I'm of a school of thought that is very "raw" minded, but the line between common sense and optimization has issues sometimes for some people. So... while I understand the "bustersword" movement its not what I'm realllly trying to shoot for so its something I'm not really even focusing on that right now.

And I would like it if the mid-level Samurai gave better encouragement for using a high threat weapon or a high damage die weapon (like a scimitar or a katana respectively) rather than being so focused on high crit multiplier weapons (like picks).

A couple of funny things about that.
1. I do see what you're saying about it being nice if the katana was actually a great weapon for the samurai instead of just an average once, but one thing that is really freaking cool and well recieved by my test group... is the fact that there's now a samurai character that actually uses a scythe. No one on this end has even attempted to whip out 2 pics for Twf and go "Blitz" with it... Not that we'd really have problem with it perse... its just an ugly sounding thing, really. A Dwarven Samurai with 2 warpicks massacring some dude. Hilarious but hideous...
Here's the deal:
I want people to be able do do that shit, I want to take it off the "Pick a weapon with the best "ball of damage" scale in my heart. If you want your "A.W." to be some oddball shit thats ya' buisness however... Its sucks that you want it to be that shit because of mechanical superiority...
I'd like to just standardize it ... The whole thing that pushed me over the edge was the "Soulborn" you just made. . . it's blueflame sword.

2. (Yeah there's a 2) People kept telling me "Frank" had kinda abandoned his creation and don't bother the dude with your questions

(scrub).
So I figured I was stuck with solo analysis + whatever I could glen from community experience.
Still... Within the first things I suggested theres an idea.
If its a (su) abilitiy we can dispense the whole bullshit of WD( XDX crit) and pick being the best and make the weapon do force damage. Which was my original suggestion. But expand a bit.
Instead of screwing around the weapon you choose gets the following stats (Its freaking powered by all the dudes who were samurai before you thats why)

Level 1-4 1d8 18-20 x3 (no stacking with anything you can think up.)
Level 5 -10 2d4 18-20 x 4 (Oh my god its a katana but its a scythe! WTF!!! OMG!

anyway)
Level 10-15 x 5
Level 16-20 x 7
........
This way if you want to twf or have reach its the same thing.
If you want to use daggers or picks or spiked chains... its ancestrally strong and can cut through a tank.

If you want your grandfathers great sword or a katana... same thing.
and now every Samurai doesn't have to take insightful strike but you're a little better off than if you were a dude with a regular magic version of the same weapon. The numbers are aribtrary really the only thing really matters there is that you have a sword thats better than just the magic version of it everyone else gets and that all the weapon selections you have to choose from are mathematically the same.
Also... I've been wondering...
Do you still get more powerattack from 2hd weapons? If not that fact and blitz explains the popularity of twf in the Tome builds. It maybe the extra attacks from twf... but I'm starting to think that its (at least believed to be) a strictly superior option

Now there are some things I would have done differently, but in general I see him performing his tasks pretty well.

I'm of a mind to agree, but really I'm just trying to finish the first part meaning polish him up in light of the BoG.
Lastly...
The "No destruction" clause on the ancestral weapon. Honestly its just to keep some dude from fucking with you about your class feature, Tauric, Minotaur/Rustmonsters but damn as well as the guy spamming shatter. Its just a nice nod to not be fucked with about your sword (I mean damn, horsemen get a ride check to negate attacks on the freakin pony, lets just scrap the broken anscestral sword. I mean just kill the fucking samurai instead. Damn) In anycase any suggestion you guys have toss'em out and we'll try to test'em this week. Fuck maybe I'll even invite uber over. . .

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:00 am

Midnight_v wrote: The "No destruction" clause on the ancestral weapon. Honestly its just to keep some dude from fucking with you about your class feature, Tauric, Minotaur/Rustmonsters but damn as well as the guy spamming shatter. Its just a nice nod to not be fucked with about your sword (I mean damn, horsemen get a ride check to negate attacks on the freakin pony, lets just scrap the broken anscestral sword. I mean just kill the fucking samurai instead. Damn)

Given how long it takes to attune a new ancestral weapon, you can really just keep a few weapons of lesser-known uncles and aunts just in case.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:50 am

I know for my games I modified the Kiai! ability of the samurai to turn threat range past 20 into additional multiplier when using the ability, so as to make high-threat weapons as desirable as high-multiplier (e.g. scimitar counts as x4 for Kiai!). It's not originally my idea, but something I saw on the board (source escapes me).

In an older campaign where I used BoG with AE, I modified the Champion class, who had a limited greater magic weapon ability. What I did was make it a constant effect for any wielded weapon, and if used on an already magical weapon, it would increase its enhancement bonus by +1. Maybe something similar could be done with the Samurai?