Anatomy of Failed Design: D&D 2nd edition.

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Hicks
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Post by Hicks »

TOZ, I live to entertain both you and the people watching at home.

This text is hidden for those who would not care to bother.

'Sides, I'm sick of having a post count of ~300; I want to contribute, but nearly every time I get to a post I'd like to respond to y'all are like 2 pages beyond that and that discussion is over. It is so frustrating to see everything I want to say being said, discussed, and moved past before I can say it; it is frustrating to be so irrelevant most of the time. To be honest, I am truly jealous of posters like Kaelik, Roy, and Mguy; not because what they have to say is always right or relevant or even clever, but because they came after me and have eclipsed me, soundly and swiftly, in post count. And it is a stupid thing to be jealous of, I am aware. So meaningless a thing is a number underneath my name, but I still want it. I do my best to be relevant and have sound arguments and be entertaining, and I do not always succeed even when I get to post without 7 people making my point better than I could have; however, if I had the power to do so I would still not silence those 7 so I could be heard first, and I believe the Den is better for having those 7 here to be relevant and entertaining.

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Post by TOZ »

Meh, don't feel alone. I rarely say anything relevant myself.
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Post by Doom »

Durr, I was talking about AD&D...my bad. Sorry. Partying wayyyy too hard over the semester break.
Last edited by Doom on Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by koz »

TOZ wrote:Meh, don't feel alone. I rarely say anything relevant myself.
Neither, really. Most of my post count is rage-design inspired by someone Doing It Wrong (tm), or just random design work I'm motivated to do to unwind.
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Post by shadzar »

souran wrote:Look, Shad if you actually had played a single session of 2e
I was playing 2nd while you were still playing with the shit in your diaper. Granted it took you until the age of 15 to stop wearing diapers (probably 21 to stop wetting the bed).....

So you were an idiot when you played, or hung around with idiots on some death march that didn't understand the game and thought you were playing Gauntlet or something. Not my problem. Don't fault the game because you suck as a human gamer.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
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good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by shadzar »

souran wrote:
Doom314 wrote:
First off, armor class in 2nd edition D&D didn't get all that low, at least for the monsters. The lowest AC was the will-o-wisp -8, and that's really super low; Asmodeus, the king of hell, is at -7. Most monsters, even fairly high end monsters, had positive AC. Storm giants, for example, are AC 1, Otyughs are AC 3, Ogre Magi are AC 4. Even the dreaded Beholder is AC 0 (or 2 or 7, if you attack the eyes...screwy system, I admit).
Ok this is just wrong. The "Old" dragons have AC-12, yes that is correct, TSR simply put them at a level they said was not possible for everybody else to reach because the system is closed at -10.
Talking through your ass again?

1E AD&D Monster Manual pg 31
Black Dragon AC: 3
Brass Dragon AC: 2

These were the first dragons in AD&D.

Don't forget that D&D and AD&D ARE two different games. Just as 1st/2nd, 3rd, and 4th are 3 different games. (3.5 makes a 4th game from what I gather, but just using simple reference from personal knowledge.)
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Starmaker »

Hicks, don't feel bad. I have registered in 2007 and fail even as a lurker: a popular thread can easily grow 2 pages overnight. He-who-must-not-be-named reached several thousand posts of fail. And then there's Nihlin with 143 posts as of this writing who saved the old AWoD thread.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Starmaker wrote:Hicks, don't feel bad. I have registered in 2007 and fail even as a lurker: a popular thread can easily grow 2 pages overnight. He-who-must-not-be-named reached several thousand posts of fail. And then there's Nihlin with 143 posts as of this writing who saved the old AWoD thread.
Yeah Signal-to-Noise Ratio is more important than Post Count. I can think of at least two people who trumped 1,000 posts with a ratio of well under 1:10. So, basically, you have:

Post Count: > 1000
Posts Worth Reading: < 100
Last edited by RobbyPants on Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tzor »

shadzar wrote:
souran wrote:Ok this is just wrong. The "Old" dragons have AC-12, yes that is correct, TSR simply put them at a level they said was not possible for everybody else to reach because the system is closed at -10.
Talking through your ass again?
No he is not, but I believe he is talking about the "Gem" dragons that appeared in Dragon magazine. But then again this was at the end of the 1E era, and was after the dreaded anti-paladin issue.
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Post by shadzar »

tzor wrote:
shadzar wrote:
souran wrote:Ok this is just wrong. The "Old" dragons have AC-12, yes that is correct, TSR simply put them at a level they said was not possible for everybody else to reach because the system is closed at -10.
Talking through your ass again?
No he is not, but I believe he is talking about the "Gem" dragons that appeared in Dragon magazine. But then again this was at the end of the 1E era, and was after the dreaded anti-paladin issue.
:confused: So Dragon dragons were off the scale compared to others? I rarely looked at anything in the Dragon Bestiary for other than inspiration. Don't feel like re-installing the archive right now to look them up either. But those shouldn't be called "Old" dragons.

I was thinking he must have meant venerable aged ones or something... :confused:
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

tzor wrote:No he is not, but I believe he is talking about the "Gem" dragons that appeared in Dragon magazine. But then again this was at the end of the 1E era, and was after the dreaded anti-paladin issue.
Do go on.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Username17 »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
tzor wrote:No he is not, but I believe he is talking about the "Gem" dragons that appeared in Dragon magazine. But then again this was at the end of the 1E era, and was after the dreaded anti-paladin issue.
Do go on.
They were canonized and totally appear in the Monster Manual 2. They are like the Chromatics or the MEtallics, but they cmp the neutral alignments. At some point they decided that the psionics were going crystal themed, so the crystal dragon would be a powerful telepath or some shit.

But the big problem was that neither the AC cap of -6 nor the later cap of -10 was actually held to at any point. That was always just the end of the chart, never any actual hard cap. If a Death Knight or a Diamond Golem wanted to have an AC better than that, they just would.

-Username17
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Post by tzor »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
tzor wrote:No he is not, but I believe he is talking about the "Gem" dragons that appeared in Dragon magazine. But then again this was at the end of the 1E era, and was after the dreaded anti-paladin issue.
Do go on.
Sorry, appears I am suffering from old fart syndrone. I looked at my photocoppied archive of the May 1980 article by Arthur W. Collins and the AC of the meanest gem dragon, the Ruby, was -3.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FrankTrollman wrote: But the big problem was that neither the AC cap of -6 nor the later cap of -10 was actually held to at any point. That was always just the end of the chart, never any actual hard cap. If a Death Knight or a Diamond Golem wanted to have an AC better than that, they just would.
Well that's been true of every edition of D&D. I mean you can pretty much toss as much or as little AC as you want on a 3E creature by changing its natural armor. And 4E, well that's entirely arbitrary anyway.
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Post by hogarth »

FrankTrollman wrote:
They were canonized and totally appear in the Monster Manual 2.
Not the 1e AD&D Monster Manual 2; it only had the cloud dragon, the faerie dragon, the mist dragon, and the shadow dragon.

According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(Dungeons_&_Dragons), they showed up in the 2e AD&D Monstrous Compendium Fiend Folio Appendix.
Last edited by hogarth on Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

I'm just going to say it, because so many people are fucking confused.

Some people are talking about 2e, others 1e, and people genuinely contradict each other based on different editions.

So... yeah.

You guys should stop doing that.
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Post by Red_Rob »

Okay, to end the confusion, some of the dragons in the AD&D 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual (the one with the lich, beholder, dragon, thri-kreen and minotaur on it) go to -12AC on the oldest age category. Specifically, the Amethyst Dragon on p70, the Gold Dragon on p78 and the Shadow Dragon on p85.

However, that said, using these extreme examples as reasons that fighters suck in AD&D is to my mind disingenuous. Fighters in AD&D 2nd. Ed. do not suck. Quite simply, at lower levels they are amazing. They are the only class to get weapon specialization, which adds to hit, damage and extra attacks considerably increasing their damage output compared to any other class.

Okay, at higher levels they eventually sucked Mage cock, but 3rd fell into that trap even harder so you can't really hold that against them, and with the 2nd ed exp tables noone really got to high levels that often anyway :D
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Post by souran »

But the big problem was that neither the AC cap of -6 nor the later cap of -10 was actually held to at any point. That was always just the end of the chart, never any actual hard cap. If a Death Knight or a Diamond Golem wanted to have an AC better than that, they just would.

-Username17
AD&D 2e the basic monster manual ALSO has some monsters that get lower than -10. I mean the Old white one, with the black spine with the blue heading type and the grey on grey page layout.

The First hardbound monster collection for AD&D 2e, after they got rid of the loose leaf system where you had to buy your own notebook

That collection contained monsters from 2 older monster manual volumes and it included a few noew monsters.


However, every single monster in there has a health dose of abirtrary. Including several monsters that bust the listed AC bracket.

Now, honestly, that is not so bad because making AC open ended was a GOOD IDEA and 3rd edition ran hard with the idea that all the old closed 2e systems were actually open eneded.

However, it doesn't change the fact that 2e was just abitrary when it wanted difficulty.

Red Rob;

The discussion of AC progression is more about how the game assumes high stats as opposed to "anybody can be played if you are up to the challenge" style waste of air characters.
Last edited by souran on Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Red_Rob wrote: However, that said, using these extreme examples as reasons that fighters suck in AD&D is to my mind disingenuous. Fighters in AD&D 2nd. Ed. do not suck. Quite simply, at lower levels they are amazing. They are the only class to get weapon specialization, which adds to hit, damage and extra attacks considerably increasing their damage output compared to any other class.

Okay, at higher levels they eventually sucked Mage cock, but 3rd fell into that trap even harder so you can't really hold that against them, and with the 2nd ed exp tables noone really got to high levels that often anyway :D
Yeah, In 2E you really could pretty much play years in the range of levels where fighters were actually good. I mean the game was based around elves having like a cap of 9th level on their classes being okay, because it was assumed you'd never see levels that high. And honestly, unless you started high in level or your DM handed out way more XP than the books told him to, the assumption was probably correct.
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Post by Red_Rob »

souran wrote:Red Rob;

The discussion of AC progression is more about how the game assumes high stats as opposed to "anybody can be played if you are up to the challenge" style waste of air characters.
To be fair, this view is still quite prevalent in the "ROLEplay don't ROLLplay" group, so singling out AD&D for this is a little harsh.

I mean there are lots of things to gripe at AD&D for. Personally, the whole "some enemies require high level magic weapons to hurt but you can't make them, hope you rolled well on the loot charts!" thing always urked me.

But saying that playing a low-powered character can still be an interesting experience? I still hear that argument over at RPG.net all the time.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

But saying that playing a low-powered character can still be an interesting experience? I still hear that argument over at RPG.net all the time.
Well, technically they're correct, since "interesting" is in the eye of the beholder and doesn't necessarily mean "effective." But defending the mechanics on the grounds that you only care about who gives the best soliloquy or who cracks the most jokes at the table is a complete non sequiter.
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Post by TOZ »

I have to agree that a low-powered character can be interesting. You have to have the right mindset, and eventually it can become unenjoyable. Playing a scout through level 6 without a single magic item was rough, but it did give me some excellent stories.
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Post by shadzar »

hogarth wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:
They were canonized and totally appear in the Monster Manual 2.
Not the 1e AD&D Monster Manual 2; it only had the cloud dragon, the faerie dragon, the mist dragon, and the shadow dragon.

According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(Dungeons_&_Dragons), they showed up in the 2e AD&D Monstrous Compendium Fiend Folio Appendix.
The age categories!

11 Wyrm AC -11
12 Great Wyrm AC -12

Dragons, Gem, Amethyst (Monstrous Compendium Fiend Folio Appendix)

And obscure MC Appendix.

It is also in the Monstrous Manual for the gem dragons reprinted. Never really used psionics, so didn't notice them or their dragons that much.

Sapphire is the only other going below with a -11 for Great Wyrm, in the Monstrous Manual.

I think there may have been an article in Dragon introducing them, but I don't see it in issue 37 "That's Not in the Monster Manual".
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

First, a bit of poetry by our good friend fectin to set the mood.
The shades of night were falling fast,
as through the message board he passed,
a fool with vigor and with vim,
and motto which sustained him:
Ignoratio!

His chin was bare; his beard beneath,
bedraggled as if cheerful wreath,
once full of merry Christmas cheer,
had festered, forgotten, for untold years,
Ignoratio!

In happier games he saw the light,
of well-wrought rules, balanced and tight,
but grumbling grognards urged him on,
and from his lips escaped a groan:
Ignoratio!

"Don't roll fighter," Frank Trollman said.
"A Great Wyrm lingers overhead!
A wizard's needed to fight in the sky!"
Still loud that quarrelsome voice replied:
Ignoratio!

"I'll mount the church-tower; hide inside!
And when that lizard happens by,
jump on him, whilst my army, from below,
fills him with arrows!" (It just goes to show,
Ignoratio!)

A plan, at least, to fell the lizard
(though no plan's needed with a wizard),
Alas fell beastie sees him on the stair,
burns the risers, and traps him there!
Ignoratio!

Oh, curse that evil, agéd genius' guile!
Oh curse the Troll Man's mocking smile!
"It's his fault! Rainman! Somehow I'll prove..
(That's it! I know! I'll use...
Ignoratio!")

The dragon calmly turns about;
the archer army, frightened, routs;
with just one bite, the captain's gone,
leaving grognard all alone.
Ignoratio!

All night long, the city burns.
All night long, the neckbeard yearns
for a warm, mother-like DM,
who'll hide how much he coddles him,
Ignoratio!

But now cold snow is falling fast,
and grognard wishes he had classed
as something with a cold resistance.
Mais non! He's fighter at his own insistence.
Ignoratio!

But now there comes an end at last,
BENOIST is frozen fast!
(His head's still firmly... well, you know)
But hear him yet! He faintly gasps:
Ignoratio!
Following a trip to the dusty corners of the local bookstore, I've been reading quite a lot of KoDT lately. For those not familiar with the comic, it is basically a Seinfeld-esque parody of the social engineering and intricacies of TTRPG gameplay where the main characters (unwittingly) play maladaptive, murderous, willfully ignorant 'heroes' whose behavior would make Lina Inverse blanche. The main TTRPG they play is Hackmaster, which is a full-throated early 2E D&D clone.

While it's currently in vogue to parody the typical TTRPG group as dysfunctional and un-self aware, reading this comic it's not hard to see why it became that way. Even though the artwork is so awful that sprite comics laugh at it, I highly recommend it anyway. The dialogue and humor are brilliant.


So why the fuck am I bringing this up in the first place in the IMHO boards? Well, I have this conjecture, which came to me after reading a parody of the OGL debate. Basically, they have a golden boy visionary working in the ossified upper echelon of the Hard Eight (read: TSR) staff circa Lorraine Williams era who has been churning out gold lately. His latest idea is a word-for-word pitch of the OGL. And he's immediately fired for having the stupidest idea ever. Now while this would normally just come across as just grognard derping to a counter-intuitive idea, Jolly Blackburn is a lot more clever than most TTRPG fanboys and the magazine in which it was published was at the height of the 3E D&D renaissance at the time. Like, we're talking 2004-2005 when everyone and their mother had their own d20 OGL heartbreaker. Hell, even kenzerco had more than their share of rip-off advertisements and articles on the phenomenon.

Since KotD is very unashamedly set in the 2E D&D era, that actually made me think that the comic was making a scathing criticism of the edition and the game. So I went back to earlier comics for evidence to support my hypothesis. And there's quite a wealth of evidence. The comic mocks the mentality shown in the Stealth Buffing Thread left and right. The gamers are shown to be kvetching continually about how their era of gaming was awesome and hardcore but are shown to be whiny and gladhanding in actual sessions. Bad roleplaying and people pretending that their bad roleplaying is the tits forms the basis of a ton of jokes. And most interestingly of all was when Bob Hertzog's dad got to sit in on a session of Cattlepunk and told his son point blank that he thought his son's and Brian's character were a gutless, evil toad despite how he plays his character like that in almost every game while being barely called out on it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that KoDT is actually satire (there's too much affection behind some of the tomfoolery for it to be so) but I think it's pretty strong evidence of a barb and a message behind its jokes. That message being: 'TTRPGs are pretty all right, but it wasn't that great. Unless you're willing to go into the depths of social depravity, it's not really the best way to spend your life.' While 2E D&D Hackmaster isn't the only game that the characters in that comic play, it is the backbone of interactions in that comic. And honestly a lot of the social intricacies the comics' parodies are dependent on (loot-whoring, death-no-saves, rule and setting bloat, DM vs. PCs, even many of the rule quirks) are 2nd-edition dependent. So even if you think that the message that Jolly is trying to give can exist without criticizing 2E D&D per se, to me that's like saying Catch-22 didn't have to take place in WW2.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Juton »

His chin was bare; his beard beneath

One of the best lines ever in anything. Thanks fectin!
Oh thank God, finally a thread about how Fighters in D&D suck. This was a long time coming. - Schwarzkopf
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