Why do they hate the catfolk races?

[RandomCasualty]

1109094140[/unixtime]]
* Treat mindless or unintelligent monsters as traps or puzzles rather than monsters -- something that isn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with a flying enemy is just like a spiked pit that can move around a little. Disadvantage: cognitive dissonance of having a tyrannosaur be considered a "puzzle", still need stats for them for players who can't/won't figure out some way to bypass them, narrows the possible encounter types drastically, makes it very difficult to run a "low-magic" style world. Advantage: encourages DMs to use fantastic monsters instead of assaulting players with black bears or wolves, doesn't require much rewriting of Monster Manuals.

This one works well assuming you're using objective based XP instead of encounter based. The problem is that when you assign monsters a CR, they should live up to that CR, and when you try to assign CRs to puzzle monsters so to speak, your CRs are almost always off, because it's really not a combat it's a question of "Do you have this spell?"

Now if you run your encounter based off of "you get 10,000 XP for rescuing the princess regardless of how you do it", then you can freely have as many puzzles as you want, because the goal there then becomes to avoid obstacles, not necessarily to just kill them.

So long as you can go dire wolf hunting in the wilderness using fly to get free experience, it just shouldn't exist until dire wolves don't give you any XP anymore. And the dire wolf needs to be CR balanced based on the fact that you won't have flying.

I don't even really consider using fly to be a puzzle anyway, because it's something everyone pretty much is going to think of, assuming you know the stat block of the creature. So puzzle wise I find the old "Need to fly over monster" puzzle really lame.

I'd prefer puzzle stuff like luring the golem and bull rushing it over a cliff or something, or laying a big rug over a pit so the golem steps into it, and other stuff like that.

I do like Oberoni's faerie flight idea, that would work well for handling faerie creatures and such and it would be a balanced ability too.

Normal flight needs to be made much harder to obtain though. I'd say that you probably shouldn't get access to flight until level 10 or above at least. Probably higher if you want to keep monsters like dire bears and collossal scorpions in the game. If the need to balance nonflying PCs against flying monsters is a problem, we could simply create an earth bind spell that automatically negates flying ability, with a lesser version that doesn't cause falling damage and a greater version that does.

Really I think we'd save ourselves a lot of headaches if we just cut out flying ability for PCs until everything can beat it. PCs need counters to flying, but they don't necessarily need to be able to fly themselves. Flying takes so much away from the game IMO without really adding much to it. It seems like almost every puzzle solution involves flight... it sucks.

[Oberoni]

This is the object lesson. Monster players can't be trusted to play monsters because they aren't willing to pay the appropriate costs. Even Oberani's flight example shown above still gives 1st level pixies a huge advantage in places with terrain(like forests, snow, indoors with furniture, combats vs short creatures, etc).

Really? You think?

Is hovering 4 feet off the ground a huge advantage?

Of course not. Notice that you're not even a full 5 feet off the ground, so you're not even out of that ground-level square; this should let you get attacked by shorties, no problem.

And if for some reason you think a short guy with a sword can't stab that high, lower the flight to 3 feet off the ground or something, I don't care.

Yes, having that Faerie Flight I invented is better than not having it at all. Obviously. However, it doesn't really do much more than make you feel like you're flying, sorta.

Truth be told, I'd much rather lots of monster abilities work on a similar premise. Just have the abilities "level-up" as you get more Hit Dice, so you get to do your racial schtick at level 1, but it just gets really cool later on.

[PhoneLobster]

Unless you are willing to model those monsters after the level abilities of other races, you shouldn't play them. Beholders can't be 1st level and still have any at-will eye rays or flight or an AMF eye. Trolls can't be 1st level and still have regeneration. To be balanced for their level, monsters can't have their signature powers until they reach the appropriate level.

And monster players can't deal with that. Thats why we don't respect them.

Now what did I say however many posts ago?

That the parranoid folks who stand in the way of catfolk and fairies and the like will pretend that allowing them in ANY functional form means the existence of 1st level beholders with full deadly eye ray capabilities.

And here K is lieing through his teeth pretending exactly that.

What is this, irony? or just outright shamelessness?

Maybe its just outright anti monster PC propaganda.

Its a smoke screen put up to prevent anyone doing anything constructive with the field, and the actual underlying motivations for doing it are NOT the ones being openly stated (since those are patently FALSE).

I'll say it again, the real reason these people don't want PLAYABLE monsters because catfolk and fairy PCs totally blow their exceptionally narrow view of what is allowed in fantasy rpgs.

They will use any panic button labelled "munchkin" no matter how silly the justification in order to do it.

And hurray for the people pointing out how flight is EVEN EASIER to obtain at EVEN LOWER LEVELS for characters who damn well do not have wings.

Gee a fairy flying at level 1, whoop de doo, the world has ended and munchkins walk the shattered earth with multiple first level beholder death rays.

Oh please save us from the munchkins sir, yes we don't mind if you use it as an excuse to erradicate every playable race other than fricking elves and glowing rune heads, we're all just so scared of the dark apocalyptic future you so vividly describe should cat girls come to pass!

[User3]

OK, if you are using every DnD supplement ever written for 3.0 and 3.5 then there are ways for characters to use elaborate systems of ropes and pulleys to get flying early.

Is that good? Spellcasters can get it normally at 5th or 6th level and most characters can afford an item at 8-9th level (when a very small number of monsters can be auto-killed by it). Is it really fair that high-level abilities should be accessable way early to a few crazy low-level character builds and not to normal character builds?

Jeez, I'm not convinced that people even want a balanced game anymore.

Really? You think?

Is hovering 4 feet off the ground a huge advantage?

Sure. Oh, its more balanced than full flight, but in any terrain where some people have to spend extra movement or make a Balance check then you have a decided advantage. Broken terrain can slow someone to 5 feet a round, and difficult terrain can double or triple their move costs. So take a dense forest with bushes and limbs and stuff, or a room full broken furniture and suddenly your Pixie is able to attack from a position where he cannot be reached by melee and he also can't be charged from such a position. Even dense snow or a river can slow people down to spending double moves where he is spending regular moves, allowing him to move and attack every turn and not be attacked in return. Basically having this PC in your game means that you can no longer have terrain in your game anymore.

Lets also not forget that he's now immune to being tripped, doesn't need to make Balance checks anymore, and never takes circumstance penalties to Move Silently checks for terrain. Depending on one's interpretation of "ground," it also seems to negate the need to make Swim checks and some Climb checks.

[Username17]

This is the object lesson. Monster players can't be trusted to play monsters because they aren't willing to pay the appropriate costs. Even Oberani's flight example shown above still gives 1st level pixies a huge advantage in places with terrain(like forests, snow, indoors with furniture, combats vs short creatures, etc).

Um yeah... I'm going to have to jump on your ass to, because that's a bunch of bullshit.

Noone thinks that Druids are broken because of Woodland Stride - that's a fvcking flavor ability and noone cares.

Now if you run your encounter based off of "you get 10,000 XP for rescuing the princess regardless of how you do it", then you can freely have as many puzzles as you want, because the goal there then becomes to avoid obstacles, not necessarily to just kill them.

Are you telling us that giving out rewards in a brain-dead computer game fashion encourages inane behavior? That the simple act of allowing people to gain XP for killing monsters encourages people to figure out the part of the game where they can kill all the monsters with a convoluted system of coffee cups, pencils, and a six sided die to hold down the attack button after you've gotten your character into a position where monsters continually spawn and can't hurt you?

Holy shit, I'm shocked! No wait, I'm not. Giving out kill experience is dumb, and it encourages people to figure out ways to kill enemies with little or no risk rather than to do anything cool. If you can have your score go up by sitting around with your hand on the fire button while ghosts pop out of the generator in an equilibrium fashion where you get more points until you feel like stopping - this is just going to reward people for XP dancing.

Yes, if you give kill experience at all, people will XP dance. And XP dancing is stupid, and I hate it. Thee is absolutely nothing you can do to Flight, or any other power that will stop people from XP dancing if kill experience is handed out at all under any circumstances.

So when you bleat like a little lamb about how "Oh no, people will XP dance unless I stop them by nerfing Flight!" I just can't take you seriously. XP dancing is going to be an inane fact of life until you get rid of kill XP, whether you have flight or not. It's like saying that the only way to save Spell Dancers is to get rid of Bull's Strength so they won't be able to inflict unlimited damage.

-Username17

[Oberoni]

1109117870[/unixtime]]

Really? You think?

Is hovering 4 feet off the ground a huge advantage?

Sure. Oh, its more balanced than full flight, but in any terrain where some people have to spend extra movement or make a Balance check then you have a decided advantage. Broken terrain can slow someone to 5 feet a round, and difficult terrain can double or triple their move costs. So take a dense forest with bushes and limbs and stuff, or a room full broken furniture and suddenly your Pixie is able to attack from a position where he cannot be reached by melee and he also can't be charged from such a position. Even dense snow or a river can slow people down to spending double moves where he is spending regular moves, allowing him to move and attack every turn and not be attacked in return. Basically having this PC in your game means that you can no longer have terrain in your game anymore.

I had no idea terrain was such a huge part of your game.

I suppose if you're constantly fighting in dense underbrush or, um, the Castle of Broken Furniture, the Faerie Flyer will have an advantage over those who can't fly at all.

And that's how it's supposed to work. There should be times where the Flyer will have an advantage.

Compare it to, say, a Dwarf, who gets +2 to saving throws vs. spells (and +3 against Fort saves, if you think about it).

Yeah, that's right. The dwarf has a racial advantage when he's targetted by most hostile spells. The faerie has an advantage in horrible terrain.

Which one do you think is better?

Lets also not forget that he's now immune to being tripped, doesn't need to make Balance checks anymore, and never takes circumstance penalties to Move Silently checks for terrain. Depending on one's interpretation of "ground," it also seems to negate the need to make Swim checks and some Climb checks.

Immunity to tripping? Nice, but not über.

No more balance checks, and possibly no swim and climb checks? ...umm, yeah. Truth be told, I might be inclined to revise Faerie Flight so that "ground" is defined as "a mainly solid surface underneath the character, which has an incline of no more than 45 degrees."

No more terrain-based Move Silently checks? Who cares, with the latest Hide rules, you'll be noticed anyways.

.....in the end, I think you're so dedicated to praising flight, that you will take the advantages that caffeine-free diet Flight gives and praise them on high to prove your point.

I can think of several other ECL 0 races with more useful abilities than Faerie Flight.

[Neeek]

1109117870[/unixtime]]

Really? You think?

Is hovering 4 feet off the ground a huge advantage?

Sure. Oh, its more balanced than full flight, but in any terrain where some people have to spend extra movement or make a Balance check then you have a decided advantage. Broken terrain can slow someone to 5 feet a round, and difficult terrain can double or triple their move costs. So take a dense forest with bushes and limbs and stuff, or a room full broken furniture and suddenly your Pixie is able to attack from a position where he cannot be reached by melee and he also can't be charged from such a position. Even dense snow or a river can slow people down to spending double moves where he is spending regular moves, allowing him to move and attack every turn and not be attacked in return. Basically having this PC in your game means that you can no longer have terrain in your game anymore.

And in return the Pixie is blown about by Gust of Wind, can't wear armor, probably can't carry their own equipment while in flight(20 lbs or less is the average pixie's flying carrying capacity).

Sure, they'll have advantages in some situations. Duh. If it wasn't going to effect anything, we wouldn't bother making rules for it. That's why Halflings have bonuses to MS, so they have advantages in situations where they need to be quiet.

Lets also not forget that he's now immune to being tripped, doesn't need to make Balance checks anymore, and never takes circumstance penalties to Move Silently checks for terrain. Depending on one's interpretation of "ground," it also seems to negate the need to make Swim checks and some Climb checks.

Seems more likely to me that a flying Pixie would have a big penalty to MS check, since their wings will be making noise. You think not being forced to make some Climb and Swim checks is broken? That's...singular...

[RandomCasualty]

1109118178[/unixtime]]
So when you bleat like a little lamb about how "Oh no, people will XP dance unless I stop them by nerfing Flight!" I just can't take you seriously. XP dancing is going to be an inane fact of life until you get rid of kill XP, whether you have flight or not. It's like saying that the only way to save Spell Dancers is to get rid of Bull's Strength so they won't be able to inflict unlimited damage.

The XP system basically assumes you're giving the opponents a "fair fight", it has to, otherwise the CR is meaningless. In a computer game it's fairly easy to ensure a "fair fight", where fair fight is defined as neither side having invulnerability to the other.

In an open ended RPG, abilities like flight and incoproreality, and really anything that potentially grants absolute invulnerability is tough because they deny the fair fight, and that invalidates any encounter based XP.

A dire bear is CR X if and only if it's assumed the creature lives up to that CR. And you only live up to that CR if you're abile to hurt the party.

Now, I personally don't like having situations where you punish smart tactics by denying XP, even though you really have to if you have stuff like flight. Because monsters that can't beat flying shouldn't even exist past CR 3. And if they do exist you just have to say that they're worth nothing in situations where fly is an autowin.

Better IMO just to chuck flying and similar stuff like incorporeality with regard to PCs. If you've got stuff that has these abilities permanently it can be built in as an ability where creatures that you can autokill don't give XP

You should never ever get XP for shooting fish in a barrel.

[User3]

I suppose if you're constantly fighting in dense underbrush or, um, the Castle of Broken Furniture, the Faerie Flyer will have an advantage over those who can't fly at all.

And that's how it's supposed to work. There should be times where the Flyer will have an advantage.

Compare it to, say, a Dwarf, who gets +2 to saving throws vs. spells (and +3 against Fort saves, if you think about it).

Um, you have a situation where the pixie auto-wins some situations and another where the dwarf gets a bonus that you honestly won't notice on the majority of rolls. Thats not even similiar.

-----------
Woodland Stride only works vs. undergrown. This Faerie Flight works on any movement obstacle, meaning that if you ever decide to draw some terrain on the map, the Pixie is at an advantage. If you are playing in an area of your game world where it snows, then this ability works outside all winter. If you are playing in a cave with rubble, it works there. It works in any room with some furniture in it, forcing enemies to spend all their move points going around stuff. Some other situations: the beach or sand, wet cobblestones, Grease spells, mud, pit traps or any other weight trap or trip wires, hot stone like partially hardened lava, caltops, Spike Stone and Spike Growth, marbles, loose rocky areas found in mountains, near rivers, or anywhere else, slippery areas like places covered in slime or moss, icy areas. areas where touchning the ground is dangerous like bloodsnow or shallow pools or acid or monster secretions, webs, etc. And it makes you impossible to Track.

Its not a flavor ability. Its a real ability that will enter into each and every adventure, and give an advantage.

[Username17]

The XP system basically assumes you're giving the opponents a "fair fight", it has to, otherwise the CR is meaningless.

And in an open ended game, you can't guaranty that! So the CR is by that criteria pretty much meaningless. Actually, it's the Kill XP system which is pretty much meaningless, the CR still has meaning because it indicates the level of monsters you should be able to defeat wthout resorting to tom foolery. Tom foolery will still be able to allow you to defeat enemies stronger than that, of course, just as tom foolery by the opposition may bring you down despite being weaker than you in a fair fight.

The solution is not to attempt to make all fights fair - because that's retarded. The solution is to embrace the fact that people are going to not fight fair sometimes and be generally OK with that.

Um, you have a situation where the pixie auto-wins some situations and another where the dwarf gets a bonus that you honestly won't notice on the majority of rolls. Thats not even similiar.

Um... you haven't shown a situation in which a Pixie auto-wins. Ever. You've shown a cool trick that you can do like maybe once ever, and then we are looking at that as compared to a Swarf getting +2 or more on an important die-roll pretty much every game session (sometimes many times per game session) for his entire life.

Even if the Pixie really did automatically win some encounter because there was extremely dense foliage and the Pixie was the only guy on either side with a bow - that's still less victories handed to you than simply staying concious one more time for every ten times you have to make a save.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1109123635[/unixtime]]
The solution is not to attempt to make all fights fair - because that's retarded. The solution is to embrace the fact that people are going to not fight fair sometimes and be generally OK with that.

True, you can't always have fair play, but you should be able to deal with common ways to deny fair fights. You cannot have universal abilities like flight that can guarantee victory against pretty much huge catagories of creatures.

Now, it's possible that we could just dump the CR system and XP system. That's fine IMO if we did that, but working with the current XP system of kills= XP, I think we just can't have flight at such low levels.

[Josh_Kablack]

Ways to Fly in core rules 3.5 before 5th level:

1. Play a Gnome or Halfing, use Reduce Person in conjunction with your Owl, Hawk or Raven familiar

2. Play a Gnome or Halfling Druid. Take a Dire Bat as an animal companion at 4th level

3. Play any class with Ride as a skill. Spend 4000 of the 5400 gp you should have by 4th level on a trained Pegasus or Hippogriff.

Creatures in 3.5 core rules which can't really do diddley to you if you fly and can attack them from more than 60' away:

Achaierai
Animated Objects
Ankheg
Hound Archon
Assassin Vine
Athach
Basilisk
Behir
Bodak
Bulette
Carrior Crawler
Chaos Beast
Choker
Chuul
Delver
Bebilith
Chain Devil
Hellcat
Lemure
Digester
Dinosaur (all)
Dire Animal (all save Bat)
Displacer Beast
Dragon Turtle
Elemental (all save Air)
Ettercap
Ettin
Formian Worker and Formian Warrior
Fungus
Ghoul
Ghast
Gibbering Mouther
Girallon
Golem (all)
Gorgon
Gray Render
Grick
Grimlock
Hell Hound
Hydras (all)
Magmin
Mimic
Minotaur
Mohrg
Ooze (all)
Otyugh
Owlbear
Phantom Fungus
Purple Worm
Remorhaz
Roper
Rust Monster
Sea Cat
Shambling Mound
Shocker Lizard
Skeleton (all examples)
Skum
Red Slaad
Swarm (Centipede, Rat, Spider)
Tarrasque
Tendriculos
Thoqua
Tojanida
Treant
Troll (but not Troll hunter)
Umber Hulk
Unicorn (if you are 60'+ outside its home)
Wight
Winter Wolf
Worg
Xorn
Zombie (all examples save Wyvern zombie)
Animal (all save bat, eagle, hawk, raven)
Vermin (all save bee and wasp)

[Oberoni]

1109123064[/unixtime]]

Compare it to, say, a Dwarf, who gets +2 to saving throws vs. spells (and +3 against Fort saves, if you think about it).

Um, you have a situation where the pixie auto-wins some situations and another where the dwarf gets a bonus that you honestly won't notice on the majority of rolls. Thats not even similiar.
[/quote]

J, you're really stretching here. Seriously.

I assume by now that you and I are playing vastly different games, since terrain is so relatively unimportant in the ones I'm in.

I really don't see how the faerie gets to auto-win by hovering a few feet off the ground, and you haven't shown it.

Furthermore, you're critically underplaying the Dwarf's saving throw bonus to the point of ridiculousness. Really, not making Fort and Will saves is bad, and pretending otherwise is sorta crazy.

I see why you're so gung-ho against this ability, though. You're so anti-PC-monster, that when someone like me presents a relatively balanced monster ability, you still have to grit your teeth and denounce it as overpowered.

You have such a vested interest in maintaining your position, that you will attempt to maintain it at all costs.

Even if you endlessly extol the virtue of floating a few feet off the ground.

[PhoneLobster]

The vast overestimation of the value of flight, even oberoni's 'flight lite' on the basis of terrain being utterly vital in all combats is really rather silly.

I mean if terrain really is that important then flight, even real flight and the primary tactic of using real flight to lob arrows at people a fair way off isn't really a big deal.

Because the number one way that a flight vulnerable monster foils that tactic is by hiding behind a wall, or going back inside his house.

So if terrain is all that important, and you know, all pervasive. Mr "I die when you fly" can use it to cancel the benefits of your all powerful diety like ability to not stick to the ground.

Hell if terrain is so all pervasive the number one way of mimmicking fly without flying (like say standing on the monsters roof and shooting him from there while he tends the vege patch in his back yard) is ALSO far more common, meaning flight is worth even less.

And damnit that big list of monsters just mentioned that flight and shooting arrows from more than 60 feet away foils.

Well that means not only you need to fly, there needs to be no cover, no retreat, good lighting, it needs to happen outside (or in a bloody big room), but with no strong winds or poor weather, not by surprise, it doesn't work so good unless EVERYONE (and everything) you care about is also flying, did I mention this really doesn't work in doors?, etc...

I'm not saying characters can't set up favourable situations but cripes, I sure as hell wouldn't build my character around relying on that beneficial conjunction of the fates, and never going inside anyones house.

You are far better off using a temporary cheap resource like spell slots for those rare occasions when flight really is all that crash hot than expending ANYTHING permantent on it just in order to be lumbered with it in the countless situations where it doesn't do squat.

And damnit its a right out tangent but people keep talking about unfair kill experience for totally owning dire badgers or whatever with your totally godly flight.

Well I'm sorry but isn't there a big old rant next to the experience table rambling on about how favourable conditions for either side, exactly like flying (infact it may even mention it in some form), means essentially throwing said table out the window?

I hate to pull a refference to a refference to that ugly rule 0 (ugh) but I thought it said it right there, if one side has some trick tactic that makes them basically invulnerable or close to it then the xp changes accordingly.

And finally... are you guys really sure flying/hovering creatures are immune to trip? 'Cause I'm looking and I don't see anything anywhere saying anything of the sort.

[User3]

Here's one more way a wizard or sorcerer can fly at first level:

1. Get a bat, raven, hawk, or owl familiar.
2. Weigh less than 100 lbs/level (easy to do if you're a gnome or halfling)
3. Cast Tenser's Floating Disc on your familiar, taking advantage of the Share Spells familiar ability.
4. Hop on the floating disc.

For 1 hour/level, you can now float three feet off the ground, following five feet behind your familiar at its normal speed.

[User3]

1. Play a Gnome or Halfing, use Reduce Person in conjunction with your Owl, Hawk or Raven familiar

Actually, no. All those animals are Tiny, and Reduce only drops you to from Small to Tiny. Eagles are Small, so you'd have to ask Frank where he got his non-Core example.

You also forgot Giant Eagles and Griffons. Griffons have Pounce, but G. Eagles hace intelligence and Evasion, so its a real toss up over those two.

--------------

I'd price Fairy Flight at the same price as a Ring of Feather Falling or a Cloak of Resistance(2Kish). I'd make it take up the back slot.

Flight is worth about 10K(like the Fiend Folio Graft).

I'd still let both into the game. I'd just never let or make someone spend class features on it.

Most "monster class" features are not good enough to be class features, but most are broken if taken too soon, or force the DM to rewrite every adventure to fit one guy's character.

I'd let people play catfolk or pixies. I'd make sure that they had appropriate powers for their level. I would not let fanboys argue about their personal vision of either race and how they should be so much better than other races.

Thats another reason why monsters classes are discouraged.

Fanboy arguments are not fun.

[Josh_Kablack]

There *is* a serious balance problem in 3.5 D&D, but flight is only part of it.

The bigger problem is that the vast manjority of monsters totally suck at ranged attacks while a substantial portion of monsters totally rule melee combat. Since PC classes tend to be roughly equal in either ranged or melee combat, the game is massively biased in favor of ranged attackers.

None of the monsters on that list have attacks which work more than 60' away. You don't even need flight to own them - you just need to be up on a castle battlement, or 65' offshore in a rowboat, or behind a portcullis, or be able to run fast enough to stay 60' out of their reach+charge range at all times and they will never be able to attack you. Never ever.

I could expand that list to include flying monsters who lack meaningful ranged attacks, and I could expand it even further to include monsters who have ranged attacks which are substantially inferior to the ranged attacks PCs will have, and we would be left with very few monsters indeed.

On the flipside, there are a disturbingly large number of monsters you really don't want to be in melee with - due either to them outdamaging and having more HP than a similar level fighter (Giants) or due to them having some hosey puzzle ability which only works up close (Mimics, Rust Monsters, etc)

[Josh_Kablack]

1109130916[/unixtime]]

1. Play a Gnome or Halfing, use Reduce Person in conjunction with your Owl, Hawk or Raven familiar

Actually, no. All those animals are Tiny, and Reduce only drops you to from Small to Tiny. Eagles are Small, so you'd have to ask Frank where he got his non-Core example.

Actually, yes.

Reduce Person explictly reduces weight to 1/8th. A light load for an Owl is 6.5 lbs, a light load for a Hawk is 10 lbs., and a light load for a Raven is a mere 1.5 lbs (or 8 lbs with an additional 2nd level spell used). Carrying load and encumberence is in no way dependant upon size category within the 3.5 ruleset.

And as to the Hippogriff and Giant Eagle and Spider Eater, those are all more expensive options.

[User3]

For what it is worth, you can trip a flying creature. That creature is then considered "stalled."

Makes sense, dosen't it?

[User3]

Mmm, not related to size, eh?

Thats kind of silly.

[Neeek]

1109138633[/unixtime]]Mmm, not related to size, eh?

Thats kind of silly.

How's that? I know I can lift things considerably bigger than myself, as long as they don't weigh too much.

[RandomCasualty]

1109127364[/unixtime]]
Because the number one way that a flight vulnerable monster foils that tactic is by hiding behind a wall, or going back inside his house.

This works if the other guy is in a tree or something, but here's where flight differs. With flight you can simply fly toward the guy and attack from above. So walls bushes, and the like are essentially useless, because the flyer can get an angle on you.

While it is true that you can run in a cave, this seems to be the very reason D&D *must* be set in a dungeon. Because a low ceiling is right now the only counter the creatures on Josh's list have (nice list btw Josh)

The problem is that dire animals and similar things are outside creatures. And it's not a great solution to simply have these creatures never be able to come outside.

I mean yeah, the game can still run with fly as it is, you just set every single adventure in dungeons. You never meet golems or anything outside, you always meet them in some low ceiling room with no manuevering space. Yes, you can certainly do that.. but if the main coutner to flight is to simply eliminate outdoor combat, one can only wonder if that isn't indicative of a huge problem.

Well I'm sorry but isn't there a big old rant next to the experience table rambling on about how favourable conditions for either side, exactly like flying (infact it may even mention it in some form), means essentially throwing said table out the window?

That's for terrain conditions, not for abilities. Your abilities are already build into your CR, or shoudl be anyway. If for instance one side of goblins was defending a tower with arrow slits and a parapet for cover, then that would be favorable terrain, making the goblins worth more. Factors that aren't normally a part of CR are included in the battle, like one sided opportunities for cover and such.

And those still assume both sides have a chance. With flight against some monsters there is no chance at all. And you deserve no XP at all for shooting a fish in a barrel. It's like putting a lion in a cage and shooting it with your bow and then wanting XP for it.

The bigger problem is that the vast manjority of monsters totally suck at ranged attacks while a substantial portion of monsters totally rule melee combat. Since PC classes tend to be roughly equal in either ranged or melee combat, the game is massively biased in favor of ranged attackers.

Yeah, this is a definite problem with monster design. The main problem is that monsters tend to have huge strength scores and strength makes you pretty much an unbeatable melee whore.

Honestly I'd prefer if ability scores were juist done away with, that way we could just make a giant equivalnet to a fighter of level X, and fix the problem entirely.

[Josh_Kablack]

It's not all Strength - a lot of it is the abilties of monsters.

If you're going to have Ogres who fight better than your fighter 3 in melee but are worse than your Wizard with missile weapons, then you should also have sniper monsters who own your cleric archer at range, but can't take a full round attack from the PC fighter - that part's Str-based.

But if you're going to have adhesive Mimics, Heated Remorhazi, sword-eating Rust Monsters, and a medusa which petrifies everyone inside 30' of it, then you should also have missile reflecting monsters, arrow eating pincushion monsters
and Hurricane Elementals who sit inside a 30' radius eye of the storm. And that's not Str-based, that's based on legacy mechanics from early editions, where Gygax felt it more important to screw over melee types, since arrow ROFS were pathetic and a 2nd level spell shut them off.

[RandomCasualty]

Yeah I'll agree with that Josh, we definitely need some more ranged hosing abilities. I mean you could even have flying heroes attacking some big nonflying monster using flying if that creature is immune to ranged attacks and ranged spells (think Godzilla).

The problem with making antirange abilities is that you've got to account for spells too, and I suppose you could say things like "non-touch spells bounce off" or something, but I get a feeling it'll be tougher than that.

[Username17]

but I get a feeling it'll be tougher than that.

Well, yeah, D&D doesn't actually have any way to distinguish the magic that you do from 5 feet away from the magic that you do 30 feet away from the magic that you do fromm 300 feet away from the magic that you do from your house.

These spells are all treated the same in every way. The game simply isn't set up to acknowledge the different combat mdes which exist. They are really important, but D&D doesn't even acknowledge them. At all.

So getting you pants tied up over one combat mode or another is a little strange and pointless. There isn't a special tag for that spell that hits people who are in contact with the ground even through walls. There should be, because that's an attack form that tweaks off of mazes - which is in much of the source material supposed to be the default combat situation. There isn't a different tag on Burning Hands (which is basically a melee attack, right?) and Lightning Bolt (which is not). They are both just templates that start at the caster.

Honestly I'd prefer if ability scores were juist done away with, that way we could just make a giant equivalnet to a fighter of level X, and fix the problem entirely.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. I mean, we could just give Fighters the strength of Giants and be done with it as well. There is nothing to say that having ability scores makes you automatically have tremendous power divergeance. There is nothing to say that getting rid of it will address that issue.

If you end up giving the Giant Scorpion a "melee skill" that's really big in exchange for removing its "ranged skill" - it's still in the same situation of virtually automatic kills one way or the other whether it has a separate stength stat or not. Ability Scores are just an accounting notation, they aren't even important from a deep mechanics standpoint.

-Username17