Interparty balance: Required or not?

[Hicks]

Ars Magica works on a tier system where grogs (basic dumb melee fighters) suck, companions (who have some magical or temporal power) are better, and actual wizards who cast actual magic rock your face off. But even then, the game is really up front about the triconomy of wizards, companions, and grogs; and from page one it is explicitly spells out that wizards rule and everyone else drools, mostly because it is a game about the life and adventures of super wizards and their groupies.

And as a system, it works alright. The key thing is that everybody at the table eventually goes through a rotation of being a single wizard, two or so companions, and whole squad of grogs, so that having a less powerful character is offset by having more of them so they can pull shenanigans while being in two or more different places.

However, Ars Magica has no standard incremental and universal demarcation of personal power such as the dungeons and dragons character level; such a thing implicitly requires all characters of equal level to be equivalent to one another, and any game designer who intentionally imbalances equal leveled characters without explicit stating so is a liar and all around terrible person.

[hyzmarca]

It's not necessary that every character have the ability to throw around nukes. It's also not necessary that no character have the ability to throw around nukes. It is necessary that every character have something interesting to do.

The problem with the overpowered D&D classes isn't that they can throw around nukes and other people can't. It's that they're so versatile that they make other classes obsolete.

Having a class that's more powerful in some way is fine. Having a class that can do everything better than every other class isn't.

[K]

I don't think K is referring to the player demanding the lion's share of the loot but rather situations in which a given build needs more gold//karma/nuyen/whatever than the other characters just to maintain parity.

ok, so the party treasure gets used in part by the cleric to heal and such the party and took a lot of the loot for supplies...

what is the problem?

profit is only determined AFTER the cost has been taken care of, so the loot being used to keep the party whole NEVER was a part of the profit to be split.

sounds like competition than cooperation. While competition could be good in some stories, and was a bit understandable where GP=XP, the problem lies in knowing where to stop and realize the party comes first.

the cleric healed up the fighter and used half the loot to do so, well that means you still have the fighter.

i know for a fact some groups would see that loot should be divided BEFORE any expenses are considered...

but this really isnt a balance issue, just a party conflict issue, that comes form competition rather than cooperation.

if you have something in 3rd that REALLY shows a class needing lions share of loot just to function, then explain to a non-3rd edition player?

Party imbalance causes party conflict.

At some point, people realize that simply not taking the Fighter to the next fight means that they get more loots, can take on bigger challenges, and get to use more of their abilities on things more fun that shoring up the gimp.

That causes resentment both from the gimp and the party.

[shadzar]

Party imbalance causes party conflict.

At some point, people realize that simply not taking the Fighter to the next fight means that they get more loots, can take on bigger challenges, and get to use more of their abilities on things more fun that shoring up the gimp.

That causes resentment both from the gimp and the party.

Not every class is needed for every circumstance though. each group will need different things because no 2 thieves are mad alike...so someone else might have to do something for the thief, or fighter or whatever...

you need all bases covered.

i recall a game of 8 players, and half of them werent needed, and nobody was "gimped".

[K]

Party imbalance causes party conflict.

At some point, people realize that simply not taking the Fighter to the next fight means that they get more loots, can take on bigger challenges, and get to use more of their abilities on things more fun that shoring up the gimp.

That causes resentment both from the gimp and the party.

Not every class is needed for every circumstance though. each group will need different things because no 2 thieves are mad alike...so someone else might have to do something for the thief, or fighter or whatever...

you need all bases covered.

i recall a game of 8 players, and half of them werent needed, and nobody was "gimped".

You do realize that saying "half of them weren't needed" is the exact same as saying "half could be gimped and I'd never be able to notice."

Seriously. An eight person party is twice the characters needed to defeat DnD challenges, so you can just sandbag the whole party and no one will notice. You are already bringing overwhelming force to bear because an eight-person party has to fight the same general CR range of things that a four-person party fights or else risk auto-losing due to monster ACs and DCs and damage being too high othewise.

In general, this means you fight more things in your CR range, but because of multiplicative effects like combat control spells the good characters simply need a little longer to win combats while the suck ones absorb attacks and spell effects (a role easily relegated to summoned monsters who are suck characters in their own right).

[Chamomile]

While we're on the subject, is there any way to make a game with large numbers of players work?

[Krusk]

Unlikely. A lot of players I know thought magic missile was a good spell for a 1st level wizard in 3.5, and seriously meant it.

I've been in games where I was berated for not taking magic missile. Even after the third session of "I solo the entire encounter after the S&B fighter, monk, and healbot were all dropped round 1." I will still get "Oh right, apparently you are some sort of wizard who doesn't prepare magic missile. WTF" passive aggressive BS.

This is as recent as the last few months. Attempts to say otherwise get shouts of munchkin and "well we are true roleplayers". Yes somehow all you need to do to be a true roleplayer is prepare magic missile.

[Gx1080]

Maybe I'm imaginating things, but didn't the OP made this same thread, using the same "D&D is a cooperative game" scapegoat a while ago?

@Krusk

You would be surprised how many times "proper roleplaying" or "respecting the background" is noise for "stop making us look bad, you filthy munchikin".

[Judging__Eagle]

Krusk, declare their weakling shoddy at immersion asses to be "poor roleplayers".

Their characters are adventurers.

If they play to fail and lose, then they are either playing comedy hour, or they are playing foolish adventurers; and are the comic relief for your character.

If they play to succeed, then they actually begin to look like something akin to Ronin or Heat, and not the 3 Stooges or Reservoir Dogs.

Right now, your group is not roleplaying, they're not learning the setting, they are not learning their character's true motivations, and they are not making their characters actually act as if they were plausible characters.

[Username17]

Having some characters just suck also is not fun for other players. No one wants to play the suck character.

That really reminds me of every time I had to be the Bucket Bitch in Crystal Chronicles.

It shouldn't. The bucket bitch's job is important. The monk isn't just weak, the other party members literally don't need him to show up.

-Username17

[quanta]

I've been in games where I was berated for not taking magic missile. Even after the third session of "I solo the entire encounter after the S&B fighter, monk, and healbot were all dropped round 1." I will still get "Oh right, apparently you are some sort of wizard who doesn't prepare magic missile. WTF" passive aggressive BS.

This is as recent as the last few months. Attempts to say otherwise get shouts of munchkin and "well we are true roleplayers". Yes somehow all you need to do to be a true roleplayer is prepare magic missile.

WTF, really? I'm imagining something like this (except for not level 1, not an enchanter, probably more optimized; the gist is the same though).

Reasonable Person: "Hey guys, I have this really cool enchanter I want to play. He's a halfling who grew up as a street rat, and due to physical weakness and frailty he prefers to avoid violence. When he was only a teenager he discovered a dusty old tome on a man who was mugged and murdered, he was captivated by it and studied it for almost a year despite his initial illiteracy and managed to learn charm person. Now he's a con-man who uses his wits and magic to fleece people." *gets out character sheet*

Halfling Specialist Enchanter Variant (Social Proficiency)
4 HP
+3 In.
20 ft. speed
14 AC
Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +3
6, 16, 10, 18, 10, 14
Maxed Skills (all are class skills for specialist variant): Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), Sense Motive
Feat: Spell Focus (Enchantment), Scribe Scroll
Raven Familiar (Speaks Common)
Banned Schools: Evocation, Necromancy
Spells Known: Grease, Identify, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Sleep, Disguise Self, Enlarge Person
Typical Prepared Spells: Lv. 0- Daze, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message. Lv. 1- Grease, Charm Person, Disguise Self

Stupid Grognards: "What? Why doesn't your character know magic missile? Real roleplayers have their wizards prepare magic missile?"

Reasonable Person: "Well, it doesn't really fit my character concept; my character is frail and prefers nonviolence. He prefers to let others do the violent work. That's why he has lots of social skills to make sure that when he has to, he always goes into a dangerous situation with good information and plenty of allies. Charm person can get him a new ally quick. "

Stupid Fucking Grognards: "You're just one of those R-O-L-L-players. You're just trying to cheat and show everyone else up. You don't know about teamwork; otherwise, you would have prepared magic missile."

Reasonable Person: "What? My spells are way better for party cooperation and teamwork than magic missile. Wouldn't you like to have your enemies put to sleep so you can coup de grace them, or slipping in grease so the rogue can sneak attack them? I can also make the fighter bigger so he has more reach and can do more damage and hold the line better."

Stupid Motherfucking Grognards: "ROLEplayers prepare magic missile." *foams at the mouth*

Reasonable Person: "Ok, you know what? Fuck you assholes, I'm leaving."

[Winnah]

What is a Bucket Bitch? Is it some kind of euphamism for a porter or pack mule or something?

[Gx1080]

In Final Fantasy Crystal Cronicles, a Bucket Bitch is the one who carries an object neccesary to be able to get in the areas with toxic miasma (read: almost everywere except towns) and can't do everything else.

[jadagul]

What is a Bucket Bitch? Is it some kind of euphamism for a porter or pack mule or something?

The conceit of Crystal Chronicles is that the world is covered by miasma which kills people, and can be held at bay by these crystal things. As an adventurer you carry around a crystal chalice (the "bucket") that holds the miasma at bay wherever you are. In single-player mode the game gives you a bot that carts the thing around for you, but in multiplayer mode, which is what the game is really designed for, one of the players has to carry the damn thing around. It cuts your speed roughly in half and means you can't take any actions, but someone has to do it.

[Kaelik]

What is a Bucket Bitch? Is it some kind of euphamism for a porter or pack mule or something?

In a game called Crystal Chronicles, you have to carry around a magic bucket, but there are up to four players, and one person has to carry a magic bucket around that projects an aura that your teammates don't die in. But whomever carries the bucket moves slow, and can't attack or cast spells.

So the bucket bitch is the person carrying the bucket, because they don't get to do anything interesting. This is different from the Monk, because the bucket projects an aura, and it wheren't for the aura everyone would be dead.

[Winnah]

ok. Thanks. I have a better grasp of what is being discussed now.

[shadzar]

Right now, your group is not roleplaying, they're not learning the setting, they are not learning their character's true motivations, and they are not making their characters actually act as if they were plausible characters.

Sadly many people dont look at how you got here, but we are here now so just do whatever...

4th proves you can play a nice little miniature combat simulator without worrying about why they are together and how they got here, but for MANY the game isnt just about combat, so you have to figure each character was alone before they grouped up, and someone survived, so has to be able to function on ALL levels and things alone for that time, otherwise they specialized in something and likely already are with some group doing that, or are just a hired mercenary.

each character must fit the setting and the group.

[Whipstitch]

Not every class is needed for every circumstance though.

Agreed, but at worst you can find yourself marginalizing a character as often as not because the party's life is just easier if you don't have Gimpy botching his stealth rolls or pissing off the diplomat or whatever. That's what makes trap options so insidious: Players can often handle sucking outside of their area of expertise but when they can't even perform as advertised in their specialty it can be pretty demoralizing.

[Psychic Robot]

[shadzar]

Not every class is needed for every circumstance though.

Agreed, but at worst you can find yourself marginalizing a character as often as not because the party's life is just easier if you don't have Gimpy botching his stealth rolls or pissing off the diplomat or whatever. That's what makes trap options so insidious: Players can often handle sucking outside of their area of expertise but when they can't even perform as advertised in their specialty it can be pretty demoralizing.

the maybe some are considering too much and too narrowly what the specialized thing for the class is?

im not talking about a thief with a DEX of 8...that is a comic relief character meant to be short term until something else happens. a stand-in NPC hopefully. Rather, I am talking about the thief who isnt optimized, because everyone else is....

it could go several ways for balance, that make the work of the DM rather easy, and things will flow well.

a- all character underperform by default, because they are playing a harder game

b- all characters overperform because they are super optimized

c- all character are average, so they cover all things equally well, except for their special area, they are a bit above average.

when you go outside of those 3, you get the imbalance in the game that causes problems, for the DM and players.....

with B, if you are not careful, you can miss some areas that leave the group not able to do a certain thing because they over specialized, with A you could also miss some things for the same but opposite reason...the "power" is not their in the character to do thi thing as others, and also the commonman might even be able to do it better, so why have the adventurers do it.

This makes C the objective better choice, since it is more well rounded, with cost to risk being about equal. You dont get the huge payouts (B) for taking bigger risks, but a higher success rate than option A. Returns the game to a 50/50 playing field.

Also you have to have the BEST character do the right task, no matter if the CLASS the character is playing SHOULD be the one to do it. A Bard, for example, would likely be a best diplomat, but in a kingdom where music and song and such is outlawed, the bard may already be behind in the minds and opinions of those in that kingdom.

you cant just look at the numbers and say this should work, because it isnt only the numbers being played.

so it really depends on what people are calling imbalance, and most times.. it is based on the numbers, rather than on what is going on while playing.

[TheFlatline]

If someone showed up to a game with a sorcerer that literally had nothing but useless spells, I wouldn't think "this person doesn't know how to play a sorcerer", I'd think "this person knows the system so well that they're fucking with me".

Unlikely. A lot of players I know thought magic missile was a good spell for a 1st level wizard in 3.5, and seriously meant it.

I said "all useless spells" not "some" or even "mostly". If someone took the time to craft a character that literally was useless, that's a lot of goddamn effort. You can at least be marginally useful without even trying.

[Swordslinger]

What is a Bucket Bitch? Is it some kind of euphamism for a porter or pack mule or something?

In a game called Crystal Chronicles, you have to carry around a magic bucket, but there are up to four players, and one person has to carry a magic bucket around that projects an aura that your teammates don't die in. But whomever carries the bucket moves slow, and can't attack or cast spells.

So the bucket bitch is the person carrying the bucket, because they don't get to do anything interesting. This is different from the Monk, because the bucket projects an aura, and it wheren't for the aura everyone would be dead.

That sounds like godawful game design if you only control one character and do nothing but follow the other PCs around carrying a bucket.

[TheFlatline]

It's not necessary that every character have the ability to throw around nukes. It's also not necessary that no character have the ability to throw around nukes. It is necessary that every character have something interesting to do.

The problem with the overpowered D&D classes isn't that they can throw around nukes and other people can't. It's that they're so versatile that they make other classes obsolete.

Having a class that's more powerful in some way is fine. Having a class that can do everything better than every other class isn't.

No it's not fine. It's ass. If that nuke is applicable to the majority of the game's combat, then there's no point in being anything other than the character that can nuke.

See the video of Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit. One summons hordes of angels and the other rides a bike. Guess who is the useless one?

Saying "dude, that's okay, because Angel Summoner is just 'easier' to play" is bullshit.

There *has* to be a cost for anything stupidly good, or else there's no reason not to take that option. If you have a nuke, there has to be some penalty you suffer so that the character without a nuke has a reason to be played.

In D&D traditionally this concept was known as "geek the mage first". Which inevitably pissed off the wizards to no end.

[Psychic Robot]

Which inevitably pissed off the wizards to no end.

now they get 4 HP a level, Int to AC, and at-will spells

good work wotc

[Maxus]

It cuts your speed roughly in half and means you can't take any actions, but someone has to do it.

You still have the option of putting the bucket down and helping out. It's what I always did.