OSSR: AD&D 2e Complete Psionics Handbook

[phlapjackage]

The long answer is that BE has more applications, is cheaper, and can be maintained for several rounds, so taking Catfall will probably never happen.

Thanks - that's what it looked like to me too.

Like OgreBattle said, with just a surface look at the rules, Psionicist looks a pretty fun class to play...up until level 10 or so

[Winnah]

Level 10 unlocks the majority of the Metapsionic Disciplines and Sciences.

Some come on line at earlier levels, but most of the significant powers have the level 10 prereq.

Most of the powers have punitive levels of difficulty, but the only thing preventing you from creating innumerable psycrystals via Empower, all with their own seperate power access, is time and money.

[Darth Rabbitt]

There are a lot of powers that are just like other powers, but only ever even slightly more useful in really contrived scenarios.

And yeah, I actually like the concept of the 2e psionicist better than any other rendition of it in D&D (although that's not saying much) or most of the traditional casters (way cooler than 16th century French war bishops or guys in their pajamas throwing bat shit at people to make them explode as a really bad joke.)

The main problem is that it's 2e and has a really bizarre concept of "balance."

And the shit like telepathic combat rules.

[Ancient History]

While the Complete Psionics Handbook might seem like pants-on-the-head crazy at times, keep in mind that the real crazy comes from the many further developments from Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms (Illithids!), and Dragon Magazine - you should see that shit once Bruce Cordell gets ahold of it.

[Winnah]

There is a revision to the Psionicist and the way power operate in Player's Option: Skills and Powers.

Once you get past the new mAC (mental armor class) and mTHAC0 (mental to hit), it's not too bad. Psionicists get a mental THAC0 equivelant to a fighter THAC0, they also gain iterative attacks per turn when using mental attack forms.

In addition to defence forms, psionicists get attack forms automatically as they level.

Stat checks for activating abilities are gone, instead each power has a set mAC. So it goes from roll low, to roll high. Penalties or bonuses for rolling certain numbers are removed.

Bruce Cordell has nothing to do with this version of psionics, so retrofitting material from any other 2e source to use these rules would be a fucking nightmare. Which is a shame, because I think this version was superior.

[Voss]

Flesh Armor is basically a variable mage armor (ranges from a shield to plate mail based on check result.) Stacks with rings of protection even though I think those don't have rules for stacking with armor in 2e.

It does. RoP bonuses just don't stack with magic armor bonuses- so chainmail +1 and ring +1 is still just +1 (well, -1) to AC rather than 2. But people still wore them anyway, since rings of protection also gave their bonuses to saves. And given amount of shit that just fucking killed you, that mattered a lot.

[Hicks]

So... 2e magic armor added its bonus to your AC and saving throws. Rings of Protection did not stack with magic armor for AC but do stack with magic armor for saves?

[Grek]

As far as I recall, armour never gave bonuses to saves. Ring of Protection gave you bonuses to AC and saves though, so even if it didn't help your AC any, you'd still wear it for the save bonus.

[Username17]

So... 2e magic armor added its bonus to your AC and saving throws. Rings of Protection did not stack with magic armor for AC but do stack with magic armor for saves?

A ring of protection improves the wearer's Armor Class value and saving throws versus all forms of attack. A ring +1 betters AC by 1 (say, from 10 to 9) and gives a bonus of +1 on saving throw die rolls. The magical properties of a ring of protection are cumulative with all other magical items of protection except as follows:

• 1. The ring does not improve Armor Class if magical armor is worn, although it does add to saving throw die rolls.
  
  2. Multiple rings of protection operating on the same person, or in the same area, do not combine protection. Only one such ring—the strongest—functions, so a pair of protection rings +2 provides only +2 protection.

That "in the same area" clause is because in AD&D you could find rings of protection that offered bonuses to saving throws of anyone (enemies included) who was within 5' of you.

The normal Ring of Protection chart capped out at +6 to AC, which means that if you just stacked on all the magic protection that wasn't armor (which in turn probably means magic Shields are OK), your AC could be "WTFBBQ".

-Username17

[norms29]

As far as I recall, armour never gave bonuses to saves. Ring of Protection gave you bonuses to AC and saves though, so even if it didn't help your AC any, you'd still wear it for the save bonus.

I don't have my old DMG with me, but I distinctly recall that it suggested that armor should give a bonus to some saves, but made no definitive statements on the matter.
I think it gave as an example that it would be "reasonable" to apply a bonus from magic armor to a save against a dragons fire breathe, but not against poison gas.

[K]

2e Psionics is based on the "so bad it's good" design philosophy.

Otherwise, why would you let one in a thousand first-level characters get disintegrate four times a day?

[mds]

I don't have my old DMG with me, but I distinctly recall that it suggested that armor should give a bonus to some saves, but made no definitive statements on the matter.
I think it gave as an example that it would be "reasonable" to apply a bonus from magic armor to a save against a dragons fire breathe, but not against poison gas.

Magic Armor allows a saving throw bonus only when the save is made necessary by something physical, whether normal or magical. Magical armor never gives a saving throw bonus against gas (which it cannot block), poison (which operates internally), and spells that are mental or cause no physical damage.

It lists scorpion stings, stinking clouds and polymorph other as things that it won't help against, but acid sprays/splashes, disintegration, magic or normal fires, general damage spells (magic missile, lightning bolt), and falls (if a save is allowed) as things where the magic armor will give a bonus.

[ishy]

So is 2e psioinics better or worse than 3.0 psionics (psionics handbook)?
I've never actually read the 3.0 version since everyone told me it was terrible and that I should look at 3.5 (expanded psionics handbook) instead.

[RobbyPants]

So is 2e psioinics better or worse than 3.0 psionics (psionics handbook)?
I've never actually read the 3.0 version since everyone told me it was terrible and that I should look at 3.5 (expanded psionics handbook) instead.

That's actually pretty tough. All in all, I'd say 3.0 was better, but not by a lot. Half of it is that it's tacked onto a better overall system, and the other half is that you aren't rolling to see if your powers work (in a stupid, non-intuitive system where low is good, but a natural 1 might be bad, and a natural TN is super-good).

That being said, here are some gems I remember from 3.0 Psionics (I haven't really looked at this since 2002 or 2003):

• Your DC wasn't 10 + power level + mod. It was d20 + power level + mod. So, your DC might randomly be off the RNG in either direction, round by round.
• There were six disciplines, each tied to a different stat. Each discipline tracked based on that stat for your DC and the highest level power you could use. So if you have a Cha of 16, you can learn 6th level Telepathy powers and add +3 to your DC, but if your Str is 11, you can only learn 1st level Psychometabolic powers and would only add +0 to those DCs.
• Powers seldom scaled with your level. So, you could get a low-mid level power that would do something stupid like 5d4 damage, and it would always deal that much damage. To do more damage, you had to blow another power known on an upgraded version. This tended to kick multiclassed psions in the pants hard.
• They still had the psionic combat system in place form AD&D (although slightly easier to use). I seem to remember this fucking non-psinoic characters over hard, just like in AD&D.

Granted, this isn't to say that 3.5 psionics is all sunshine, rainbows, and kittens, but they did at least tie a single manifesting stat to each class, set DCs to follow the normal rules, added scaling to powers (although some of these were still ass, as you'd have to pay extra to keep your damage-dealing powers up to maximum level), and got rid of psionic combat as AD&D knew it.

[Darth Rabbitt]

While the Complete Psionics Handbook might seem like pants-on-the-head crazy at times, keep in mind that the real crazy comes from the many further developments from Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms (Illithids!), and Dragon Magazine - you should see that shit once Bruce Cordell gets ahold of it.

I get Bruce Cordell and all of the Dragon and setting books, but what crazy shit did Illithids do to psionics?

I thought that they were psionic as soon as the psionic rules came out, did that fuck shit up?

There is a revision to the Psionicist and the way power operate in Player's Option: Skills and Powers.

Once you get past the new mAC (mental armor class) and mTHAC0 (mental to hit), it's not too bad. Psionicists get a mental THAC0 equivelant to a fighter THAC0, they also gain iterative attacks per turn when using mental attack forms.

That kind of sounds like a weird proto-touch AC (there are touch attacks in 2e but they don't use special rules as far as I can tell) deal, which isn't necessarily bad.

In addition to defence forms, psionicists get attack forms automatically as they level.

Do the telepathic attack/defense work off the mAC/mTHAC0 then?

If so, that alone makes it vastly superior.

Stat checks for activating abilities are gone, instead each power has a set mAC. So it goes from roll low, to roll high. Penalties or bonuses for rolling certain numbers are removed.

That's definitely all good.

Bruce Cordell has nothing to do with this version of psionics, so retrofitting material from any other 2e source to use these rules would be a fucking nightmare. Which is a shame, because I think this version was superior.

Definitely sounds better than what I've been reading.

So is 2e psioinics better or worse than 3.0 psionics (psionics handbook)?
I've never actually read the 3.0 version since everyone told me it was terrible and that I should look at 3.5 (expanded psionics handbook) instead.

I can't really answer that because my position is the same as yours.

[Ancient History]

You never read the Illithiad?

[Maxus]

"Oh Elder Brain, give me the knowledge to share this story.

3.67 x 10^5 standard years ago, the armies of the Gith were outside the city of Illithoy. They numbered 5.55 x 10^7, and had been laying siege for 1.2 x 10^1 years.

The gith had been held from the walls of Illithoy by the skill of the illithid defenders, most especially by psionics of Craniavore and the ever-layered contingency spells of the alhoon Oddesspionicus."

[Darth Rabbitt]

I'm aware of it, but all I really remember is Illithids reproducing through parasitic tadpoles, which is kind of cool and kind of stupid at the same time.

And them being from the Far Realm or something, which I am indifferent to.

[Ancient History]

Well, maybe we'll do an Illithiad review someday, so everyone can bask in the vague bio-science lunacy.

[Tumbling Down]

So is 2e psioinics better or worse than 3.0 psionics (psionics handbook)?
I've never actually read the 3.0 version since everyone told me it was terrible and that I should look at 3.5 (expanded psionics handbook) instead.

Well, the 3.0 Psion had physical-stat based casting on a class that specifically had access to powers like Polymorph Self and Mind Switch.
...I don't know if anything more needs to be said on the overall quality of the 3.0 Psionics Handbook.

[Winnah]

regarding the S&P version of psionics.

A psionicist, in a single combat round, do the following:

Activate a number of psionic attack forms as allowed by their level (2 attacks at level 13, max). They can also follow up these attacks with additional power use, assuming they have remaining PSP's and the targets mind is open.

Activate a psionic defence.

Activate a psionic power

Maintain or dismiss powers.

Mental Armour Class works like touch AC, but instead of being determined by Dex, it is modified by Intelligence and Wisdom. Psionic Defence forms boost this value, though you still have variable defences against attacks, depending on the attack form.

MAC is also used as the target number for powers. Some powers have a variable MAC, depending on the range or effect.

For Psionic Attack forms, the targets MAC is used, modified for various other effects (spells like protection from evil, for example). Damage is done to PSP's first or inflicts the Open Mind condition. This can be pretty devastating considering a psioniscist is allowed to follow up with another psionic power immediately if they open a target's mind.

Mental THAC0 is your attack value for psionic attacks and what you roll to activate other powers. For a psioniscist, this means that power use becomes easier as they increase in level. It is modified by intelligence.

Failing to hit a the MAC of a power typically means that you only lose half the PSP's required to activate the power. Power costs and maintenace have been revised somewhat.

Wild Talents get the shaft, somewhat, as their MTHAC0 values are significantly lower than an actual psioniscist. On the plus side, they gain Defence Forms automatically as they level, as a psionicist, and they can also spend a NWP to gain access to attack forms as well.

I previously stated that converting power from other suppliments to this system would be a nightmare...I forgot about the table that has the converted MAC and PSP costs. Includes Complete Psi, The Will and the Way and Dragon Kings.

Metapsionic powers are absent, the reason is not explained.

With this version of psionics, the low level psionicist will probably be saving PSPs for attack forms like Mind Thrust, which can knock out a target with an open mind and have a good chance of success against a typical AD&D monster. As they gain levels, it becomes significantly easier to mess shit up with telekenisis powers, all the while knocking out major threats with Mind Blast. A short work day psionicist woul be pretty powerful.

I hope that answers your questions about the S&P version of the rules.

[Darth Rabbitt]

It does.

Thank you.

Now to finish the next chapter...

[Darth Rabbitt]

CHAPTER 6: Psychoportation

Our first science here is Banishment, which briefly sends the target to a pocket dimension against its will, where it stays as long as you maintain the power; once you cease maintaining, it reappears exactly where it was, unless something else has been put there, in which case it returns to the nearest open space. Why they prevent that use of the power I'm not sure, as there are way more abusable powers in this book, that can be abused in ways to kill targets.

Bad Pun Alert: A guy with a goofy looking expression on his face dimension doors away from a goofy looking troll. The caption is "Dimensional Door: Juan decides not to stay for dinner."

Probability Travel is essentially plane shift to the Astral Plane; the book assumes to find a "color pool" to travel to another plane, although you could probably do the Gith thing to gank some astral-projecting foes. Although the book then goes and says that your physical body can't affect astral bodies, but psionic powers do, as do magical items that are keyed to another plane (the Astral boosts those for some reason, and other magic items are useless.) You have to maintain each hour you're on the Astral. You can take people along with you (as defined by charm person; no, really, they say "as defined by the charm person spell) but it makes the power cost more. It also informs the reader that:

If you'd like to learn more about traveling on the astral plane, see the new PLANESCAPE™ accessory.

Which for some reason I find really funny, because the wording makes it sound even more like a blatant cash grab (I know that's nothing new in D&D books, but in most D&D books I've read they don't make things from other books sound quite so much like a cheesy advertisement.)

Summon Planar Creature should really be Call Planar Creature, as it teleports an existing creature to you from the astral or ethereal plane. Calling one from an inner or outer plane doubles the cost of the power, and the called creature is randomly chosen by the MC. Very, very 2e.

Teleport is Teleport, but psionic, and either more and less variable in range, depending on how many PSPs you spend. It's more screwy than teleport without error, but less screwy than teleport with error.

Teleport Other teleports one to three others (willing or unconscious characters) up to 10 yards away.

Devotions:
Astral Projection is as the spell.
Dimensional Door is Dimension Door, only the person traveling through it is dazed for 1 round afterwards, and range is more limited.
Dimension Walk is a much longer range Dimensional Door that doesn't daze, only it requires a Wis check each turn (with 7 leagues/21 miles traveled each turn.) If failed you're shunted somewhere random determined by the MC up to the maximum distance traveled away from where you first started traveling.
Dream Travel: You travel by falling asleep and dreaming of traveling somewhere up to 500 miles away. Technically all that is needed is a power check rolled secretly by the MC to see if you make it (failure means you fall 10% short of your journey for each point the roll exceeded your power score, presumably up to falling 100% and waking up in the same place.) However the MC is strongly encouraged to make the psionicist role play the dream voyage, with shitloads of MTP used. Others can be brought but they are costly, with animal-level intelligences doubly so.

Bad Pun Alert: Not really as much a bad pun as a lame and esoteric Family Guy manatee joke. A bearded dude is sleeping and dreaming about himself (and some others behind him) arriving on a longboat to some waving people wearing funny hats. Caption is "Dream Travel: Five passengers set sail that day for a three-hour tour..." Man, Gilligan's Island references, 2e really has the finger on the pulse of its player base.

Teleport Trigger is a sort of contingent teleport, although you have to be aware that the conditions have been met for it to work.
Time Shift is basically a poor man's Time Stop, complete with not being able to "affect anything around [the caster]" but being able to buff up and ready shit or run away. You are unaffected by anything around you, and you don't actually act faster than anyone else, just removed from them. It can't let you escape contact for some strange reason.
Time/Space Anchor prevents you and allies within a 3 yard radius from being teleported against your will, unless you fail a psychic contest.

Next up is Chapter 7: Telepathy, which is naturally the longest chapter so far.

[Shrapnel]

DR has had plans of running a 2e parody campaign. It hasn't happend yet, and considering the past history of our gaming group and our tendency to have sessions not happen as scheduled, I doubt it ever will. But I have hope.

Anyway, I asked if I could play a demi-lich, since the whole point of the campaign is to make fun of 2e and it's... quirkyness. And playing a demi-lich would fit the parody-ness of the campaign.

DR said there were no real rules for playing a demi-lich.

"Oh," I said, "kinda like how therez no rules for psionics in 2nd Edition."

HAHAHAHAHHAHA!

ahem...

Fun was had by all.

Also, I remember all of the cheesy puns and illustrations. That's really the only reason read the book in the first place.

Speaking of which...

I literally need to set down this book every once in a while, it's that bad.

Actually, I did at one time read the whole thing. In it's entirety. Word for word. Including the index. (I was reeeallllyyy bored that day.)

And I read all in one sitting. (Again, really, really bored.)

Of course, I didn't understand a word of it, of course. (I had little understanding of the mechanics of D&D when I was a kid. Actually, scratch that. I STILL have no understanding of the mechanics of D&D.)

Anyway, I've oft wondered: Did the fact that I could read the whole book in under an hour or two in one sitting speak more to my ignorance of the game, or something far more sinister?

[tussock]

Dimensional Door is Dimension Door, only the person traveling through it is dazed for 1 round afterwards, and range is more limited.

It's a "door" though, not personal teleportation, it lasts at least 1 round and you can maintain it to march the party through (and hope your enemies will follow and stun themselves).

You can also open multiple doors and chain them, at any angle, which totally got used to make falling traps and so on. Quite a fun power. Can be used offensively by having your pet Fighter push people into it, set up so they take falling damage and lie prone and stunned for a round afterward. Not usually worth it given how much damage a Fighter can do in 2nd edition by just swording stuff.

Enjoying the trip down memory lane, despite my nitpicking.