AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
The WBL in D&D discussion now has its own thread here:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=311747#311747
[/TGFBS]

[hyzmarca]

Just noticed this shit:

Memorizing a spell is a difficult task that requires a clear head from a good night’s sleep and 10 minutes of effort per level of the spell (see the Player’s Handbook, Chapter 7).

WTF!! so it takes a 20th level wizard 30hrs to memorize his spells for the day assuming he isn't a specialist or have bonus spells.

I know that math is hard, but what the shit? at best it should be 10min per highest level known, so at most you only waste an hour and half of your day doing complex calculus in your head.

That was intentional, I believe. The point was that Wizards couldn't just blow all their spells per day. They had incentive to save up because it was literally impossible for them to recover them all in a single day. On the other hand, unused spells stayed memorized.

[Emerald]

Just noticed this shit:

Memorizing a spell is a difficult task that requires a clear head from a good night’s sleep and 10 minutes of effort per level of the spell (see the Player’s Handbook, Chapter 7).

WTF!! so it takes a 20th level wizard 30hrs to memorize his spells for the day assuming he isn't a specialist or have bonus spells.

I know that math is hard, but what the shit? at best it should be 10min per highest level known, so at most you only waste an hour and half of your day doing complex calculus in your head.

That was intentional, I believe. The point was that Wizards couldn't just blow all their spells per day. They had incentive to save up because it was literally impossible for them to recover them all in a single day. On the other hand, unused spells stayed memorized.

And apparently people liked that rule and its consequences, since I've seen plenty of houserule suggestions on other forums to make spell recovery for higher-level 3e casters require a nice long weekend in a library or temple or something to encourage spell conservation.

I don't know how well it would actually accomplish that, but I think it would be worth combining it with the rule mentioned earlier about being able to re-memorize spells as long as you have the time as an experiment. Low level casters don't have to wait 8 hours to get their handful of spells back, and you basically get a ritual system for utility spells without the 4e bullshit of having separate combat and utility slots. It would probably require some other tweaks to make it work but I think it could actually work out rather well.

[Leress]

And apparently people liked that rule and its consequences, since I've seen plenty of houserule suggestions on other forums to make spell recovery for higher-level 3e casters require a nice long weekend in a library or temple or something to encourage spell conservation.

The problem I see with that is high level casters only cast about 1-2 spells per battle so it wouldn't really affect them. It also say to player either we hand wave the weekend away or go play Smash Brothers while ever one else plays which would be dumb since leaving able allies behind is the quickest way to get killed.

[shadzar]

or if you are using HLC, you threw out racial level limits to get beyond 20, you are all humans, or did something else. not to mention when you are throwing around 9th level spells you dont memorize your full allotment of lower level spells. take a few less magic missiles and read magics. save the spells like that for when you are camping or in town to use or jsut hire a low-level wizard as an apprentice and have them in the party for the low-level spells.

sound like an adventure you have played before? want to take a guess why it sounds liek those adventures?

[Username17]

Anyone who played actual high level Wizards in 2nd edition just popped over to zero time planes to get their memorization done. I mean, there was various shit like magic kittens that reduced memorization times, but they were still long enough that for practical purposes what you actually did was to pop into zero time dimensions to rememorize spells and then pop back totally refreshed - sometimes even in the middle of combat.

And that's why there were all kinds of weird bullshit like Spell Matrices and Spell Conduits and other crap that let you rain down a half dozen or more spells in a round. Because you got all your spells back every combat or sometimes more often than that in high level games and expensive ways to blow off fuck tonnes of spells in short amounts of time were essential for having those spell piles actually mean anything.

Spell prep times get kind of long in mid levels, but they taper off to nothing really fast.

-Username17

[Rawbeard]

So, again I got bored and curious (bad combination) and dared to turn my gaze upon.... the complete druid! Just skimmed the kits (shapeshifter got mentioned earlier)... who wrote that? I did not want to know what special abilities Rimi got from being a shapeshifter, I want to know what I can get from being a shapeshifter. This reads retarded. And the rest is like that too.

Druids are weird, man.

The 90's sucked, man.

[Rawbeard]

I think I might be caught in a destructive downward spiral. I might need help. soon.

But until then, more questions. Today: Wizards! They are so awesome, that basically only shit races like humans and elfs can be one. Great. Oh well, those were the times. It looks pretty much mandatory to specialize in a school of magic, which usually reduces the racial choice down to human and helf. I consider this an improvement.

I can pretty much see how totally borked Alteration is, but I wonder if Conjuration, Illusion and Enchantment hold. Summons seem to take a long time to set up, but then again I confuse turns and rounds all the time, so it might be actually not ridiculous.
Do illusion and enchantment spells provide the expected level of save or suck?

And why can Gnomes only be Illusionists?

[Username17]

And why can Gnomes only be Illusionists?

Because in 1st edition AD&D, the Illusionist was a different class than Magic User, rather than being a specialty subschool. They had their own spell list and did reality manipulation and stuff. Gnomes could be Illusionists, but not Magic Users.

When 2nd edition came around and they folded the Illusionist class into the Wizard, they kept that restriction on Gnomes, even though that no longer made any sense.

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[/img]

-Username17

[shadzar]

When 2nd edition came around and they folded the Illusionist class into the Wizard, they kept that restriction on Gnomes, even though that no longer made any sense.

except it did make sense if you think in terms of AD&D and not 3rd/4th. AD&D still had racial and level limits to classes in both 1st and 2nd. the gnome was not seen as a mage class because, and as later made, they were tinkers or rogue...

so rather than throwing around cast:fireballs, the gnome would make a gnomish arqeubus Rube Goldberg device weighing 50 metric tonnes.

so to allow gnomes to still transfer from 1st to 2nd, and since specialist wizards from ANY class (save for divination, cause the Oracle of Delphi would suck as an adventurer), the gnomes were able to still be illusionists. but they now use the same specialist rules of any other race that wishes to be an illusionist with school restrictions, plus whatever special racial restrictions to magic carried over from 1st.

at least they werent turned into a second-rate PC class/monster like in 4th and people transferring were just screwed and could still use their gnome-illusionist from 1st to 2nd.

of course, you could remove any racial or level limit and allow any race to be any class if you chose to do so, and also chose to deal with what happened balance-wise when you did so.

and you need to stop using code and virus injection methods to post pictures like you did. jsut find one online you can hotlink to and place the URL rather than the mime method you are using that can cause malicious software on the Den's users.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Hey Frank, how do you post an image like that, maybe if everyone starts doing that Shadzar will finally go away...

[MisterDee]

Do illusion and enchantment spells provide the expected level of save or suck?

Saving throws for monsters were weird (and sort-of DM dependent.)

The basic rules was that they had the same saves as Warriors of a level equal to their HD (so, fairly poor saves for low-level monsters, but getting better for every +2 HD.)

However, if the monsters had magical or priestly or roguish abilities, the DM was supposed to take the most advantageous save number for each category. So that could get ridiculous fast - especially since spellcasting monsters often had access to both priestly and wizardly magic, so they'd get quite the variety of saves to pick.

To make things worse, the MM didn't tell you which saves to use for which monster, so it was a DM's call.

As to save-or-suck/die working... basically, saves were mostly dependent on target HD and whether or not the monster got to use the wizard's or cleric's saving throws. There might have been a couple of tricks to give penalties to the saving throw, but overall as monsters got tougher, they began resisting your spells more often.

On the other hand, quite a few spells didn't allow saving throws, so there's that to consider.

[Hicks]

Dearest Rawbeard,

BE. A. CONJURER.

It is the only guaranteed way to get ensnarement at 11th level, as a specialist wizard specifically and automatically learns 1 spell from their specialist school each time they gain a new spell level. From there, you may enslave Efreeti and make them sulk in an engraved silver circle for a few days untill they give you wishes for free. To do this, you will need a Constitution score of at least 15 and an Intelligence score of at least 12. Higher ability scores are not needed as ability scores can will be raised with wishes.

This is literally the best advice I could give you, other than to he a human thief or fighter and dual class into conjurer after five or seven levels, but that requires a set of much higher ability scores

[Username17]

Hey Frank, how do you post an image like that, maybe if everyone starts doing that Shadzar will finally go away...

It's just a direct link to the thumbnail images stored on Google's image server database. I have no idea why Shadzar thinks they are magic. Possibly because the url is really long? But that's not because it has any embedded code, that's because it's a unique call to a very large image file database.

-Username17

[hyzmarca]

Hey Frank, how do you post an image like that, maybe if everyone starts doing that Shadzar will finally go away...

It's just a direct link to the thumbnail images stored on Google's image server database. I have no idea why Shadzar thinks they are magic. Possibly because the url is really long? But that's not because it has any embedded code, that's because it's a unique call to a very large image file database.

-Username17

No, Shadzar is right. That's not a URL at all. That's a full image encoded in Base64.

In fact, it says so explicitly.

Code: Select all

data:image/jpeg;base64

means that it is a full jpeg file encoded in Base64.