The coverage of concepts by 3.x prestige classes really wasn't helped by having less than half of all published PrC levels ever worth taking in comparison to additional levels in a base class.
Then within that 40% of published PrCs, you have to exclude the subsets of
Stuff the MC doesn't allow due to abuse potential (Spelldancer, Incanitrix,)
Stuff the MC doesn't allow due to squick factor or flavor reasons (Acolyte of the Skin, Blood Magus, and Illitihid Savant are all potentially too squicky and Forgotten Realms specific classes like Purple Dragon Kinght, Harper, Red Wizard of Thay and Fist of Elminster are unlikely to be allowed in non-FR games)
So in practice, only somewhere from 10% to 25% of all published PrCs were ever likely to see play.
Then on top of the above issues, you have the issue of games actually running at levels where PrCs are even an option. Given the tendency to start things over at first level, that's probably less than half of all 3e campaigns ever played.
****
But as to Savage Species PrCs specifically, someone official (Rich? Skip?) actually clarified to me the post-release chat that the Survivor's +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 BAB progression was NOT a typo, despite it being both massively subpar and completely unique among published 3e classes. So uh, yeah FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING FUCKS
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
I would also consider Minotaurs to already be pretty feral and I'm not sure why they used one as the template (and why there was a run on feral halflings after this book came out).
What I don't get is why a tribe of racist, insular, merciless cannibals who shun civilization and glorify Objectivism the inner self is supposed to be LAWFUL NEUTRAL.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Minis Handbook or Heroes of Battle* also had a class that offered no BAB, the "MY NAME IS HUGE" guy. The actual class features are things that have no business not being available to barbarians to begin with (oh look, Races of War gave them those abilities!), the main reason people used it on the CharOp boards is you gain something like +2 Strength per level.
One of the books, I want to say DMG2, gave guidelines for making prestige classes, but they were pretty underwhelming. Shit like "A DC of 10 + class level + stat is good for 10 level prestige classes, but not for 5 level ones" and "Here are the four save progressions - only use None for very specific cases". Nothing actually useful.
*I can't remember enough to tell the two apart. They basically cover the same conceptual space: use miniatures for battles, so why not use larger scale battles!
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Koumei wrote:Minis Handbook or Heroes of Battle* also had a class that offered no BAB, the "MY NAME IS HUGE" guy. The actual class features are things that have no business not being available to barbarians to begin with (oh look, Races of War gave them those abilities!), the main reason people used it on the CharOp boards is you gain something like +2 Strength per level.
the point was basically to combine it with runescarred berserker and cast divine power.
Yeah, the Str instead of BAB class is fucking Great for a Cleric 1/Stuff X/Big 10 character that just uses DMM Persist and a ring of spell storing with his buddy or something.
The other thing I once used it for was for some kind of Arena in a Labyrinth/Maze with traps and shit thing where all the walls were 5ft thick stone, so I just made a character that literally had every possible thing to increase Strength Checks for breaking things. It got to the point where I could break 5ft stone walls on a 2. So basically, the strategy was to run through the map by ignoring the walls.
That was pretty fun. Obviously I lost to a Druid who successfully outgrappled me, but you should see the fits the DM had with his precious maze that he designed, that probably favored his favorite, get ruined by me breaking whole walls in every standard action so that everybody just met by finding my giant tunnel of broken walls.
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Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."
It's disappointing that the DM wasn't delighted at the awesomeness of a maze being bypassed, but then again, watching that kind of DM get infuriated is rewarding.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
i really don't understand why you would become angry as a dm when one of your players succeeds at adventuring. isn't that the thing which this game is actually all about?
zugschef wrote:i really don't understand why you would become angry as a dm when one of your players succeeds at adventuring. isn't that the thing which this game is actually all about?
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
Kaelik wrote:Yeah, the Str instead of BAB class is fucking Great for a Cleric 1/Stuff X/Big 10 character that just uses DMM Persist and a ring of spell storing with his buddy or something.
The other thing I once used it for was for some kind of Arena in a Labyrinth/Maze with traps and shit thing where all the walls were 5ft thick stone, so I just made a character that literally had every possible thing to increase Strength Checks for breaking things. It got to the point where I could break 5ft stone walls on a 2. So basically, the strategy was to run through the map by ignoring the walls.
You probably forget to reference Kool-Aid man by yelling, "Oh Yeah!" and this angered his inner child.
zugschef wrote:i really don't understand why you would become angry as a dm when one of your players succeeds at adventuring. isn't that the thing which this game is actually all about?
Because you didn't properly fellate the GM. Blueballing them by not slurping along their 'maze' makes GMs angry.
To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
Kaelik wrote:People have a lot of random builds that use Incarnate Construct to offset the LA from templates.
SO you can be a Phrenic Warforged Incarnate Construct, and you get all the Phrenic stuff for free.
Phrenic is an inherited template, while Incarnate Construct is an aquired one. Thus since you have to apply Phrenic first, don't you lose your specials because of Incarnate Construct?
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Correct. And yeah, you are indeed already on risky ground regarding putting it past the MC. That said, I seriously have seen an MC allow "Incarnate Construct Warforged - it just says the ECL has to be positive, not the LA, so I make the difference up with more class levels!"
Then again, that was very much a "whatever, anything goes" game.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Kaelik wrote:People have a lot of random builds that use Incarnate Construct to offset the LA from templates.
SO you can be a Phrenic Warforged Incarnate Construct, and you get all the Phrenic stuff for free.
Phrenic is an inherited template, while Incarnate Construct is an aquired one. Thus since you have to apply Phrenic first, don't you lose your specials because of Incarnate Construct?
Or some other template. I don't know or care, or make these builds, but the obvious concept of using Incarnate Construct to offset the LA of some other template is the point I was trying to get across.
Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."
Sorry about the delay, I was having computer issues. However, they are now resolved with me getting a new computer for my birthday. And let me tell you, it is a fucking HORSE. So here goes, I think I might be able to finish this up.
Continuing with the templates...
Symbiotic Creature: The first thing this template made me think of was "Half-Life head crab". You can mix any two from the following list: Humanoid, animal, plant, vermin An astute observation is that the sample symbiont is technically illegal because stirges are none of those things. Still, it has some potential for some horrifying encounters (although why undead, aberrations, and outsiders can't become symbionts isn't made obvious).
Tauric Creature: Wait, did I accidentally wander into fur affinity again? The other day I accidentally found my way into a herm centaur gallery. Worst hour and a half of my life. Anyway, you pick a humanoid or monstrous humanoid, then pick an animal, vermin, or magical beast and take the good points of each. The hobgriffon looks kind of cool. Reprinted from Monster Manual 2 (and I'm pretty sure nearly all the undead templates were Dragon magazine originals).
Umbral Creature: Makes a variety of creatures into shadows. Another reason why Shadows are kind of a big deal in D&D; a colossal shadow can deal 4d6 strength damage with an attack! Also note that I'm pretty sure there are colossal things that can't harm a shadow in any meaningful way.
Wight: Makes a humanoid into a wight. Not much to say, but if your DM is using this template and you're a necromancer it does give you more options, wights are easy and fun to make after all.
Winged Creature: Gives a creature wings, plus a good boost to dexterity and wisdom. I'd argue it would make a decent monk template, but its LA +2 for some ungodly reason. Still, I've used it before, because it's only +1 CR and there's a lot of things that do very well with wings (just ask Twilight Sparkle).
Wraith: Makes a humanoid into a wraith. Unlike the Umbral Creature template, only works on humanoids and the constitution drain doesn't scale to size.
Yuan-Ti: Gives two templates, tainted one and broodguard. I am not sure why a broodguard needs a template at all, but the tainted one represents a human seduced by the snake people and corrupted through a ceremony. It could work.
The rest of the chapter talks about templates and what you can add to what monster, and what are the final endpoints of type changing.
My thoughts on the templates in general: I didn't realize it, but this version of the umbral template is freaking INSANE. A colossal creature can make shadows out of most people in one or two hits. Are shadows supposed to be a big deal, because there are a lot of monsters that a shadow automatically wins against, even at large sizes and high levels. I wonder if Libris Mortis nerfed it any...
Last edited by Ted the Flayer on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
One of the Monster Manuals has the hilarious Shadow Asp. Its venom saps the corporeality out of you. It deals Strength damage, and any creature killed by the venom becomes a Shadow.
Problem: Strength damage doesn't actually kill you. Shadows have a special ability where they kill you and turn you into a Shadow if you hit zero Strength, but the Shadow Asp lacks such a thing. So you'd probably be better off with an Umbral Viper.
Also, plenty of the templates in there were pretty decent for monsters but not for players. In a book about playing as monsters. Nice one, guys!
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
I had a terrible mechanically, but really fun to roleplay, Insectile Tauric Viletooth Lizardfolk/Ankheg with Draconic Wings who had swim, burrow, climb, and fly speeds, looking like something that Lovecraft would come up with on a bad acid trip, with a horned lizard face with segmented eyes and acid-dripping mandibles, 12 clawed limbs, dragon wings, a long tail and covered in black scaly plates.
He (I think it was a he, it could've really been a she, it, anything, everything or nothing just as easily) 6-handed power-attacked-lance-everything; wearing full plate he was basically untouchable and his attack and damage were really damn high from having like a 40 Strength.
But he died if hit with Cloudkill or Holy Word, or if hit with enough fireballs.
He was a unique Spawn of Tiamat, and believed that he was the most beautiful creature in all existence.
Pseudo Stupidity wrote:This Applebees fucking sucks, much like all Applebees. I wanted to go to Femboy Hooters (communism).
Ted the Flayer wrote:
Symbiotic Creature: The first thing this template made me think of was "Half-Life head crab". You can mix any two from the following list: Humanoid, animal, plant, vermin An astute observation is that the sample symbiont is technically illegal because stirges are none of those things. Still, it has some potential for some horrifying encounters (although why undead, aberrations, and outsiders can't become symbionts isn't made obvious).
Your PCs have not encountered true horror untill they face humaniod inhabiting cordyceps fungas
This chapter is hilarious. First off, it desribes what happens when you take a huge jump in LA. You need to gain ALL the experience before leveling again, and since you have such a high level you cause the whole party to get less experience. So not only do you screw your own advancement, but also the advancement of everyone in your party! Fun times!
There are some notes talking about players getting different templates, and some rituals to change creatures around. Lots of cheese to be found here.
A minor ritual gives you an alignment subtype (including ones that don't match your actual alignment!), you can get a subtype (goblinoid, gnoll, etc.), you can get an elemental type (I am not sure why being immune to one energy type and taking double damage to another gets you an LA hit, because I'd imagine as a player you face a variety of types at best and have a vengeful DM that spams your weakness constantly more often), you can get the aquatic subtype (which gives you an LA if you use it, I shit you not), and a ritual that makes you incorporeal (which seems like more of a pain in the ass than anything).
Major rituals change you completely into another monster. You can spend gold (the sample talks about a 1st level fighter spending 7,000 GP per level, where the fuck is a 1st level fighter going to get that kind of scratch? Honestly), the second method is to spend EXP (which is a better deal at high levels), or use Wish (and the book tells DMs to make it not grant random abilities because fuck you.)
Note that according to the rules in the book, transforming into a creature gives you the average physical stats of the creature you turned into, and does not change your mental stats at all. The example the book gives of an ogre barbarian turning into an elf has to be one of the worst instances of using this that exist.
Appendix 1: Sample Monster Classes
So now that we've determined that monster classes are executed all fucked up, here's a whole pile of them! They're all different varieties of bad, although this chapter has some really good illustrations. It's a shame that it's wasted on this chapter, because I like most of them. The maniacal flesh golem with the arrows stuck in him inspired a recurring NPC in one of my games.
The incubus reading the pickup artist book is also amusing
I won't go through any of them, because they're all different types of shitty.
Appendix 2 is a table compiled of every monster listed thus far. It would be handy, if you gave a fuck about anything in this book.
Appendix 3 is a section of new monsters! First is the anthropomorphic template. Alright, now I KNOW I'm at Fur affinity now. There's a table of the anthropomorphic animal template applied to every animal in the Monster Manual. Anthro cachalot whales are THE class to play as a monk. You eat 3 hit dice and take an LA of +1, but you're large (which when built right gives you a couple more D6's to your unarmed strike), you get +8 str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +6 Wis, and +9 natural armor. That would be the only time I'll recommend playing a monk (and I wouldn't recommend taking more than 5 levels regardless). If you don't care much about turning, a Bat makes a pretty good cleric (+6 wisdom with no LA, plus it one HD so you can replace that with a cleric level). There's some cheesy choices, and a lot of horseshit.
The half-ogre caused a lot of drama back in the day. Despite being better than the Drow, it has +1 LA (back in 3.0, so did the drow). It later got bumped up, and so did the drow template. Gives you strength and con, hits everything else.
Next are two monsters that I am medically unable to give three shits about: the Desmodu and the Loxo. The desmodu came from the big 3.0 adventure path as neutral bat people living in the underdark. I don't know where the fuck the loxo came from (feel free to fill me in if you know). Next is another version of the thri-kreen to add to the other couple dozen versions. Is this another instance of Dark Sun stuff being popular for some reason?
The Web enhancement is just Redman using the ass-backwards system to make up a dog person and a bug person. No note if the dog people wear skulls and track down dimensional beings and spellcasters.
Last edited by Ted the Flayer on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
Ted wrote:I don't know where the fuck the loxo came from (feel free to fill me in if you know).
The Loxo are originally a forgotten realms monster. They first showed up in one of the realms-specific volumes of all those fucking appendixes to the monstrous compendium that TSR was shitting out back in the day.
The Bat is for druids, because you give up... nothing, in order to get + Casting stat, and then you transform and forget about your lower physicals and speed deficiencies.
And just in case you play in games that start before level 6, you ride your hunting dog/wolf.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."
