2e Wizard vs. The Multiverse

[Hicks]

So tonight I'm going to run my wife through an adventure where a 20th level 2e D&D wizard is going to destroy the multiverse, and her character is every character she ever played in 1st or 2nd edition D&D since 1991. We have really kick ass records. Anyway, the plan is to destroy the Plane of Shadow as well as the Astral Plane, preferable using the Far Realm... somehow, while the big bad wizard guy abuses the fuck out of every wizard spell ever created (Ensnarement leases to genies leads to wishes and polymorph other on mind controlled mice leads to moar wishes; wishes lead to spells, magical swag, and ability scores). It is just one dude, who sends mind blanked astral copies of himself, his clones ,and his simulacrums out to wreck shit across the multiverse.

Basically, this is "Crisis on Infinite Torils".

So if you know about an abusive 2e wizard spell, magical item, monster, or combination thereof, please share.

[shadzar]

So if you know about an abusive 2e wizard spell, magical item, monster, or combination thereof, please share.

yeah it is 2e not 3.x so you have spell research and can make any damn kind of spell you want for it. MAGIC CAN DO ANYTHING.. what more do you need than that to be "abusive"?

[JonSetanta]

You probably already know this, but in 2e especially Forcecage can wreck anyones day.
Even other spellcasters, as long as they didn't memorize Dimension Door or Teleport.

[Prak]

So if you know about an abusive 2e wizard spell, magical item, monster, or combination thereof, please share.

yeah it is 2e not 3.x so you have spell research and can make any damn kind of spell you want for it. MAGIC CAN DO ANYTHING.. what more do you need than that to be "abusive"?

...have you ever actually looked at 3.X?

[Wiseman]

[silva]

The Norns (or the Fates) would foresee your plan and send avatars out of Ysgard (or Olympus) to kick your magician mortal ass before he put the plan in motion.

[JonSetanta]

When I made an RPG setting I figured there would be this council of good gods intervening in prime worlds to prevent this kind of magical asshattery, but only as far as the dark gods didn't intervene.

They would set up an alliance to ensure godhood as a whole wasn't interrupted, such as mortals ascending to godhood by supernatural means.

[Hicks]

Yes, but I am the DM, and mind blank is an 8th level spell. Most of her characters are priestess, so it kinda works out. Neat call on the space^3 idea.

[shadzar]

So if you know about an abusive 2e wizard spell, magical item, monster, or combination thereof, please share.

yeah it is 2e not 3.x so you have spell research and can make any damn kind of spell you want for it. MAGIC CAN DO ANYTHING.. what more do you need than that to be "abusive"?

...have you ever actually looked at 3.X?

Have you ever looked at 2e? Pun-pun and that way word nonsense is tricks and gimmicks that requires so much to do anything it is silly.

really 3.x magic is like going through all the Harry Potter movies even though you have the time turner that you could just go back and kill Voldemort before he ever gets to Hogwarts. 2e is just taking the Time Turner back and locking Marvolo Gaunt in Ahzkaban before she gets married to a muggle.

one wizard need just work on a spell his whole life, send that powerful spell back in time to his younger self, which will likely kill the elder version in the process, and this continues until the younger wizard alters the spell into a new one to send back, and so on and so forth. the final spell being more powerful than all the gods in all the crystal spheres and all the beings of every plane. and this spell over so many iterations has been made level 1 so the younger wizard can cast it instantly.

it is basically an infinite combo in MTG like Mesa-craft. so all you really need to do is develop the final spell, since the intervening spells really wont matter as they are for the end result and each new timeline destroys the previous spells leaving only the newest and final version.

so you create the final version super spell you want, and a spell of the proper level that lets you send a scroll or spellbook back in time without error to a specific person.

punpun takes like a thousands little gimmicks and in 2e a human wizard can do much more with 2 spells. sadly it can probably be done in 3rd as well if you can get those freaky ECL/WBL/etc shit to fit the 2 spells into, but nobody even thinks about things like that, instead they try to scour silly splatbooks published by someone else to do their thinking for them to try to break the game.

so could YOU do it with 2 spells in 3.x like i just did it for 2e?

[rasmuswagner]

one wizard need just work on a spell his whole life, send that powerful spell back in time to his younger self, which will likely kill the elder version in the process, and this continues until the younger wizard alters the spell into a new one to send back, and so on and so forth. the final spell being more powerful than all the gods in all the crystal spheres and all the beings of every plane. and this spell over so many iterations has been made level 1 so the younger wizard can cast it instantly.

it is basically an infinite combo in MTG like Mesa-craft. so all you really need to do is develop the final spell, since the intervening spells really wont matter as they are for the end result and each new timeline destroys the previous spells leaving only the newest and final version.

so you create the final version super spell you want, and a spell of the proper level that lets you send a scroll or spellbook back in time without error to a specific person.

punpun takes like a thousands little gimmicks and in 2e a human wizard can do much more with 2 spells. sadly it can probably be done in 3rd as well if you can get those freaky ECL/WBL/etc shit to fit the 2 spells into, but nobody even thinks about things like that, instead they try to scour silly splatbooks published by someone else to do their thinking for them to try to break the game.

so could YOU do it with 2 spells in 3.x like i just did it for 2e?

As usual, Shadzar advocates ignoring all the rulebooks and proceeding directly to sucking the MCs cock.

[Prak]

My point is that it is just as possible for a 3.X wizard to fuck off and research the "I win" spell as you assert it is for a 2e wizard.

[Leress]

The core 3rd spells are pretty much that same as the 2nd spells. Also once again Shad pull out Pun-Pun even though that has nothing to do with 3rd edition spell casting.

[Prak]

Well, I'll admit I haven't read 2e, so maybe there's actually a spell research system (I doubt it). But 3e does say wizards can research spells.

[shadzar]

As usual, Shadzar advocates ignoring all the rulebooks and proceeding directly to sucking the MCs cock.

Spell research is not something the DM does without player input--or vice versa.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Well, I'll admit I haven't read 2e

one down, the rest of TGD and obnoxious 3tards to go to admit they are just spewing shit said by WotC to sell 3.0 like "ze game will remain ze same" video did to sell 4th over 3.5.

funny how people finalyl admit they are doing so and have no actual accounts of use of the game but love to bash it.

Spell Research

One of the most overlooked assets of the wizard or priest is the ability to research new spells. In the hands of a clever player, this ability results in powerful and unique player characters. Since the player has to get involved to make the research rules work, it is also an excellent method for getting player ideas into the campaign. However, since there are so many different possibilities in spell research, there are few set rules. Use the following as guidelines when faced with magical research in the campaign.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

don't let the bolded and underlined portions confuse you.

[Prak]

shad, you still haven't answered my question about whether you've read 3e. I also never stated, implied, or let it be believed I've read more than a Van Richten's Guide or Complete book from 2e.

When creating a new spell, use the existing spells as benchmarks, and use common sense. Creating a spell is actually fairly easy—it’s assigning a level to the new spell that’s hard. If the “best” 2nd-level spell is invisibility, and the “best” 1st-level spell is charm person or sleep, and the new spell seems to fall between those spells in power, it’s probably a 2nd-level spell. (Sleep, however, is a strange example, because it’s a spell that gets less useful as the caster gains levels—compared to a spell such as magic missile or fireball, which gets better, up to a point, for higher-level casters. Make sure spells that only affect low-level creatures are low-level spells.)
Here are some pieces of advice to consider.
• If a spell is so good that you can’t imagine a caster not wanting it all the time, it’s either too powerful or too low in level.
• An experience point (XP) cost is a good balancing force. An expensive material component is only a moderately good balancing force. (Money can be easy to come by; an XP loss almost always hurts.)
• When determining level, compare range, duration, and target (or area) to other spells to balance. A long duration or a large area can make up for a lesser effect, depending on the spell.
• A spell with a very limited use (only works against red dragons) could conceivably be one level lower than it would be if it had a more general application. Even at a low level, this is the sort of spell a sorcerer or bard never takes, and other casters would prepare it only if they knew in advance it would be worthwhile.
• Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the best offensive spells. If the spell is flashy or dramatic, it should probably be a wizard/sorcerer spell.
• Clerics are best at spells that deal with alignment and have the best selection of curative and repair spells. They also have the best selection of information-gathering spells, such as commune and divination.
• Druids are best at spells that deal with plants and animals.
• Rangers and paladins should not have flashy attack spells in the manner of magic missile and fireball.
• Bard spells include enchantments, information-gathering spells, and a mixture of other kinds of spells, but do not include powerful offensive spells such as cone of cold.

I can quote rulebooks and underline and bold passages too. My point still stands.

[shadzar]

no, i never quoted a single thing on 3.x rules verbatim from non-SRD sources. so obviously i never read 3e.

and to quote yourself and many others here. this isnt a 3.x thread, it specifically asks for advice on 2e, so who gives a fuckign tinkers damn what 3.x says about anything?

my point still stands that 2e isn't stupid like 3.x and there are MORE options in it that 3.x can EVER offer.

you quote PROVES my point.

Clerics casting fireball spells or mages healing injured characters is contrary to the styles of the two classes

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

[*]Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells,

the BIG difference here is how the systems are made to work. 3.x was made to gimp the fighter while inflate the cleric; to solve some non-existent problem where the cleric was useless and the fighter was underpowered because wizards could be of more utility. (not counting how higher level wizards who run out of spells require like 40 hours to memorize a full compliment of spells ) so oddly 3e REALLY doesn't want wizards to have that option, which means they can jsut make CLW wands instead

note though that 2e was built on the premise of the generic D&D core. this is the core. is Hicks playing the world non-existent world? you know the one where the "rules" make perfect sense because they all fit together? no, no one does, because it doesn't exist. it is generic ideas for implementing in your own way. it is 1000% toolbox system, unlike 3.x which is a confined system.

that means he can have wizard healign spells if he wants an offshoot concept of Dragonlance where maybe cleric jsut dont exist and never hv. likewise maybe wizards are banished from the world by the gods to insert their power over EVERYTHING so a cleric can cast fireballs. sure it is "contrary to the style" the wizard and cleric were designed for as common ground for generic medieval fantasy use that D&D non-world tries to give ideas for, but Hicks doesn't have to conform to those since in 2e, the moment a DM takes that position he already is expected to change things to make them work for HIS world, not Gary's, Mearls', Steve's 'Zeb''s, Dave, Tweet's, etc.

that is the key. 2e is the toolbox system not the EVERYTHING-IS-DEFINED system.

and again Hicks is working in 2e, and it is all that matters how things are done there, not 3.x.

[radthemad4]

you have spell research and can make any damn kind of spell you want for it. MAGIC CAN DO ANYTHING.. what more do you need than that to be "abusive"?

Then give some examples of really awesome spells that could feasibly be researched using 2e rules.

[shadzar]

anything that is utility and not just [+X damage]

expand the elemental alteration spells to things like:

transmute water to earth
transmute water to air
transmute water to fire

transmute air to fire
transmute air to earth

transmute fire to earth

sure you can instakill with them, but it helps in other ways too.

how about some divination?

lesser mapping: gives locations of voids within a 100' area
greater mapping: 1000' area
witching [x]: locate all [x] within given range (where [x] is gold, silver, some other mineral)

not going to try to recreate all my old spells until i can put them into Core Rules again.

[CCarter]

Nahal's Reckless Dweomer + Alternate Reality (Tome of Magic) - you need to be a wildmage, but its about a 36% chance of casting a spell of any level you know at x3 effect using a 1st and a 3rd level spell slot. Duplicating spells like e.g. permanentcy/wish like this I think would avoid the Con loss/ageing, if you weren't already doing that by e.g. Magic Jarring into peasants during the spellcasting.
(Caution: Occasionally will result in the caster turning themselves into a possum or something).

There's also an Enhance spell in Legends & Lore that adds d4 to someone else's stat permanently (max 22) but costs [that much +1] permanent Con (with backfire chance on other stats). If you've already found how to make copies of yourself this would let you stat boost faster than with Wishes, although it caps out sooner.

[Hicks]

That works well with simulacrums (depending on the spell's level) and using it after using magic jar on a clone or monster. Thanks.