ST/WH40K wanky fanboy question.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:59 am

Hey, I remember going to First Contact with my dad. They put a drill in Picard's eye.

EDIT: WHY IS EVERYTHING RAMMING SPEED?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:17 am

Didn't Voyager end their series with a major blow or even near extermination to the Borg?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:20 am

virgileso wrote:Didn't Voyager end their series with a major blow or even near extermination to the Borg?

Ugh. Voyager ended with bullshit. The Borg apparently have a transwarp conduit that goes right to Earth and never bothered to send like fifty cubes through it for... um... no reason. Also time travel crazy bullshit makes me cry. Janeway breaks the fucking time line to save a couple of crewmen but she could have gone back to the first episode and saved all the crewmen. What the fuck?!

And yeah, the Borg queen gets poisoned, and then the unicomplex blows up for no reason. But really, it didn't make any damn sense. It had already been made clear that you actually could negotiate with the Borg, so blowing up unicomplexes wasn't really that necessary to protect the Federation.

-Username17

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:56 am

FrankTrollman wrote: Ugh. Voyager ended with bullshit. The Borg apparently have a transwarp conduit that goes right to Earth and never bothered to send like fifty cubes through it for... um... no reason. Also time travel crazy bullshit makes me cry. Janeway breaks the fucking time line to save a couple of crewmen but she could have gone back to the first episode and saved all the crewmen. What the fuck?!

Well honestly, why do the Borg even want to conquer Earth? It really doesn't make sense why they'd single out Earth as some planet they'd send long range attacks at. Human technology is good, but I don't really see that it's any better than a lot of the other shit they've run into.

So it doesn't really make sense that the Borg wouldn't just swarm Earth with the transwarp conduit, but it also doesn't even make sense that they'd go after Earth at all. It wasn't even really like the Enterprise made a great impression on the Borg in their first meeting anyway.

As for Borg versus Imperium: Honestly, I see the Imperium doing pretty well here. The Borg are fucking stupid. Seriously, they let you beam aboard their ships freely until you start killing Borg... then when they do attack, they just attack you with melee. While they are technically immune to energy weapons, projectile and melee attacks have proven to be effective (which is something that the Imperium has no shortage of). The only other advantage the Borg have are numbers, only the Imperium has that too, possibly more so.

The Borg have very powerful ships, but they're not going to nuke people from orbit, they're going to try to assimilate them. That means a ground fight, something the Imperium is very proficient at. And despite the fact that the Borg are going to be transporting around constantly, they're going to take heavy losses.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:42 am

Well, see, a long range attack on earth seriously wouldn't take two days, and they've destroyed two cubes already, which were sent for a reason, whatever it is.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:22 pm

The more I hear about WH40K, the more I think a group of argumentative children wrote it. With crayons.

"My people are army guys"
"Mine are big monsters"
"Yeah, well mine are super army men in suits of armour."
"Yeah, but there are loads more of mine."
"Yeah, well mine have two hearts."
"Yeah, well, you can take off my guys head and sow it back on and they'll be fine."
"Yeah, well mine can spit acid, and have three dicks."
"Yeah, well mine gets bigger the harder it thinks it is."
"Yeah, well mines twice as tall as my dad."
"Mine gets four times as big as mine."
"Fine, but mine gets a huge sword. With a chainsaw attached. No, wait, the sword is a chainsaw."
"Yeah, well I have huge mechs."
"Mine are bigger, and have turrets and those castle bits on the top."
"Well mine are in space."
"So are mine, and they shoot nukes at you."
"My nukes are bigger than yours."
"Nuh-uh. My nukes can blow up planets."
"Yeah, well, whenever my men die, they throw out seeds that grow into other men."
"How do they do that? Thats stupid."
"My men are made out of vegatables."
"Vegetables?"
"Ummm... yeah?"

(The only bit not in WH40K is the three dicks. Probably.)

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:16 am

Parthenon wrote:The more I hear about WH40K, the more I think a group of argumentative children wrote it. With crayons.

Originally it was unevenly cribbed from over half-a-dozen incompatible settings from 2000 AD magazine, combined with the 'Warhammer Fantasy... iiiin spaaace' elements. Then they officially refused to reconcile any contradictions, stating that their fluff was mostly inaccurate Imperial propaganda anyway, only intended to convey the general 'feel' of the setting, since creating a specific canon would only unnecessarily constrain them.

They have not really disavowed this stance, except to state that whatever they published most recently is more canon than whatever they published less recently (but still not actual canon).

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:10 am

Psychic Robot wrote:Hey, I remember going to First Contact with my dad. They put a drill in Picard's eye.

EDIT: WHY IS EVERYTHING RAMMING SPEED?

Because space is an ocean, and people tend to forget that any break in spaceship's hull is almost certainly going to be instantly and explosively fatal. Except in star trek, of course, because the magical force fields essentially make the hull unnecessary, except when the writing dictates that it doesn't.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:02 am

But surely then if they deliberately don't reconcile contradictions, this debate is completely stupid. If the Imperium is whatever you want it to be then you can't really have any idea what it can do.

I mean, the Orks are made out of algae, grow bigger as they get more confident and when they die they shoot out spores that grow into other Orks. How is the 40k universe not completely and utterly retarded and not worthy of consideration?

Thinking about it, I'm now really curious. How do nukes work in space?

Obviously they do, since I've heard various plans for world destroying asteroids being nuke it to change it's orbit. But how?

Since its in a vacuum there isn't much concussive force; theres a lot of heat, light and radiation, but its all in waves. Surely it won't do anywhere near as much damage as in an atmosphere? Maybe I just don't get physics.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:22 am

Parthenon wrote:Since its in a vacuum there isn't much concussive force; theres a lot of heat, light and radiation, but its all in waves. Surely it won't do anywhere near as much damage as in an atmosphere? Maybe I just don't get physics.

EMP would be the important one in ST, I guess. That is much larger in space.

Heath Robinson · Post by **Heath Robinson** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:41 am

Actually, the EMP effects of a nuke rely on interactions with gas particles, negating the EMP effect in space. The thing is that Nukes are pretty ineffective in space, but all explosives are ineffective in space. Nukes just happen to be able to brute force themselves into effectiveness because of their immense energy dump.

The radiation nukes throw off includes gamma and X-ray flashes that are all kinds of fun to deal with for the opposing crew. You really don't care if a bit of space is more radioactive, as well.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:41 am

Parthenon wrote:But surely then if they deliberately don't reconcile contradictions, this debate is completely stupid. If the Imperium is whatever you want it to be then you can't really have any idea what it can do.

I mean, the Orks are made out of algae, grow bigger as they get more confident and when they die they shoot out spores that grow into other Orks. How is the 40k universe not completely and utterly retarded and not worthy of consideration?

Pretty much, yeah. The 40K Imperium makes no god damn sense. It's basically just the statement "In the background, there's the far future stuff from Heavy Metal Magazines circa 1978."

Parthenon wrote:Since its in a vacuum there isn't much concussive force; theres a lot of heat, light and radiation, but its all in waves. Surely it won't do anywhere near as much damage as in an atmosphere? Maybe I just don't get physics.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Water conducts explosions better than an air atmosphere because things are tightly packed and the compression wave carries without much energy loss. As opposed to the air atmosphere where the gaps between molecules accordion in and out causing a lot of the energy to be converted along the way. Like how it's easy to punch someone through a wooden block on their face than it is to punch someone through a pillow on their face. The pillow doesn't impede much, but it does absorb a fair amount of the energy. The wooden block stops the punch entirely, but it carries mos of the force to the other side.

The vacuum doesn't impede at all, so it's like sending your punch through nothing - somewhat better than the block of wood and much better than the pillow. In space there is no gravity and nothing in the way. So each explosion (nuclear or otherwise) simply expands in a sphere, with the force it exerts at any point being reduced by the square of the distance. As in, when it has traveled twice as far it will be covering four times the surface area and be exerting a quarter the force.

Now, you can spice things up a bit by covering your explosive in shrapnel. That will send distinct chunks of solid matter out in a lot of directions that will move at full speed until something slows it down (by, for example: being run into). Since we're still in space, that's pretty much "forever" as far as we care. So at this point, the blazing hot and wicked fast chunks of metal that our nuclear explosion sets off will individually do just as much damage if they travel a thousand kilometers before they hit something as if they impact something right away. Remember however that space is still huge and the chances of any particular piece of shrapnel hitting any particular thing after it has traveled much distance on a stellar scale is pretty close to zero.

-Username17

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:05 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:EDIT: WHY IS EVERYTHING RAMMING SPEED?

Because your last torpedo isn't fired from a launcher.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:02 pm

Parthenon wrote: How is the 40k universe not completely and utterly retarded and not worthy of consideration?

I think the problem is that you aren't assuming the 40k universe is retarded. It makes a lot more sense.

Don't get me wrong, I think the 40k universe is awesome(ly hilarious). But c'mon.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:07 pm

Every series that doesn't have 'internal consistency' as a stated writing goal blows chunks at actually having any, rather than people just saying 'wee, it now works according to plotium"

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:51 am

Not that that's a bad thing, as long as you're upfront about it and don't switch up the rules in the middle of the story.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:59 pm

Voss wrote: Because space is an ocean, and people tend to forget that any break in spaceship's hull is almost certainly going to be instantly and explosively fatal. Except in star trek, of course, because the magical force fields essentially make the hull unnecessary, except when the writing dictates that it doesn't.

Well, even a ship without magic shields is going to have some kind of blast doors to seal off ruptured sections from vacuum. So while you may lose some people, you're not going to lose the entire ship in the case of a hull breach. Submarines do that by just having different sections sealed off. I'm sure a high tech spaceship designed for combat would have at least that level of technology.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:04 pm

Heath Robinson wrote:Actually, the EMP effects of a nuke rely on interactions with gas particles, negating the EMP effect in space.

I never knew that. What gas particles does it react with?

Nihlin · Post by **Nihlin** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:37 pm

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

The case of a nuclear electromagnetic pulse differs from other kinds of electromagnetic pulse (EMP) in being a complex electromagnetic multi-pulse. The complex multi-pulse is usually described in terms of 3 components, and these 3 components have been defined as such by the international standards commission called the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC).[14]

The 3 components of nuclear EMP, as defined by the IEC, are called E1, E2 and E3.

The E1 pulse is the very fast component of nuclear EMP. The E1 component has an intense electric field that can quickly induce very high voltages in electrical conductors. E1 is the component that can destroy computers and communications equipment and is too fast for ordinary lightning protectors.

The E1 component is produced when gamma radiation from the nuclear detonation knocks electrons out of the atoms in the upper atmosphere. The electrons travel in a generally downward direction at relativistic speeds (more than 90 percent of the speed of light). This essentially produces a large pulse of electrical current vertically in the upper atmosphere over the entire affected area. This electrical current is acted upon by the Earth's magnetic field to produce a very large, but very brief, electromagnetic pulse over the affected area. [15]

The E2 component of the pulse has many similarities to the electromagnetic pulses produced by lightning. Because of the similarities to lightning-caused pulses and the widespread use of lightning protection technology, the E2 pulse is generally considered to be the easiest to protect against.

The E3 component of the pulse is a very slow pulse, lasting tens to hundreds of seconds, that is caused by the nuclear detonation heaving the Earth's magnetic field out of the way, followed by the restoration of the magnetic field to its natural place. The E3 component has similarities to a geomagnetic storm caused by a very severe solar flare.[16][17] Like a geomagnetic storm, E3 can produce geomagnetically induced currents in long electrical conductors, which can then damage components such as power line transformers.

squee_nabob · Post by **squee_nabob** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:39 pm

Between Transporters, Replicators, and Holodecks you can abuse so much Treknology that it's not even funny. Simply route your transporter through the subspace coil and you can suddenly beam over 100 light seconds with enough accuracy to end up inside someone's ship through their shields. Replace person with bomb, and ST can win nearly every space fight.

Ground fight = lock transporters on titan. Transport into black hole. Use transporter pattern to make your own titan etc. Same with God Emperor of Man. Simply transport, and recreate him, but with new memories so that him and his team of nigh infinite clones are for the Federation.

Nearly everyone loses to abusing those key pieces of equipment. Your planets are vulnerable, but you can store people in transporter pattern buffers or turn them into holograms, and either way planets become superfluous. Squeamish about killing? Send your ship crewed with holograms. ETC. Treknology is just more broken than nearly everything in the 40K verse.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:59 am

squee_nabob, your post is gibberish, which I realize is hard to out and out say when it is refrencing a show that invented technobabble, but I say it none the less.

Simply route your transporter through the subspace coil and you can suddenly beam over 100 light seconds with enough accuracy to end up inside someone's ship through their shields.

You must be referenceing the new Star Trek movie. I enjojed it, but that particular part was two scoops of stupid.

You cannot transport through shields. Using your transporter means that you have to lower your shields. It has been (and will be) my contention that void shields = electrostatic shields.

There is no such thing as a subspace coil. There are warp coils, which alter subspace to reduce the mass of the vessel to allow it to break general reletivity over its knee.

You cannot transport a Ground Titan into a black hole, it can't fit inside the pattern buffer because it is as big as a freaking starship, and a transporter has a maximum range of like 10,000 Kilometers, not 10,000 lightyears; unless the planet is orbiting a black hole (where the planet would be destroyed by tidal forces) it just ain't gonna happen.

Transporters have a maximum speed that they can operate, and a large starship (such as a Galaxy, Nebula, or Excelcior class starship) can process around 1,200 persons an hour, so beming them into space is totally a viable tactic if you have like 10 or 20 vessels (still gonna do jack shit against the Cadia garrison but whatever).

Simply transport, and recreate him, but with new memories so that him and his team of nigh infinite clones are for the Federation.

Seriously? There is an intervention in your near future, be ready for it. There is so much wrong with that. Transporters and replicators don't work that way.

Now that we got that out of the way, welcome to the Den.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:10 am

There are easier things to do:

Like teleporting nuclear devices beside an enemy's sheilds, when they detonate, they damage or remove some of the Void Sheilds.

The ST people can probably teleport dozens of them in quick succession to drop an imperial navy ship's sheilds; then teleport a bomb or assault crew to the main engines of said ship. They're manueverable enough to piggy-back on top of an Imp ship without being shot at; and their ship's phasors can shot enough small low-power beams quickly enough to swat fighters that show up.

Also, the Feds could simply build, you know.... warships. Which are pretty much the same as any of the enterprises; except without the saucer section.

Basically a ship that is only: power supply, engines, essential crew compartment, and weapons storage/launchers. With a smaller overall ship, the sheilds won't be as strained, so they will be more resiliant and have more power to dedicate to firepower, it will be more manueverable; and also easier to manufacture.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:49 am

Hicks wrote:Transporters and replicators don't work that way.

Using Transporters to replicate people has happened, and I'm pretty sure isn't even difficult, except that you have to provide the energy to duplicate the mass. However, the Feds don't do it, either because they have a cultural taboo, or because Section 31 suppresses it.

It is also possible to alter the pattern in the buffer to produce an altered person when they come out. Once again, the Feds don't do it, for one reason or another.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:31 am

I got bored and stopped reading this long ago, but I must mention this, regarding the internal consistency (none) of 40K:

There are two scales for measuring a setting. The first is "Believable (Verisimilitude) and internally consistent". Once you pass a certain threshold where everyone cries "BULLSHIT!", there is no going back. Once this happens, you can only crank it up to over nine thousand and start being measured on the second scale: AWESOME.

The best examples include Scribblenauts, Warhammer 40K and Rifts. Dinoriders does well on the awesome scale (PEOPLE RIDING DINOSAURS, EQUIPPED WITH LASERS!) and the first scale (because they limit it to that and provide a half-reasonable explanation). Now take Dinoriders and plonk it into Ranma 1/2, before adding medieval knights. It has just reached "Awesome scale only".

FrankTrollman wrote:and the chances of any particular piece of shrapnel hitting any particular thing after it has traveled much distance on a stellar scale is pretty close to zero.

I have this mental image of people wandering along happily, only for a radioactive chunk of shrapnel to fall out of the sky and nail someone.

And then the commander who first ordered the space nuke be fired takes off his helmet and says... "JUST AS PLANNED."

ELDRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:14 am

If Creed is involved for the Imperials, the Feds won't have a chance.

federation: Excellent, we can now commen-

Imperial Fleet: *appears out of nowhere*

Federation: CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

Creed: Tactical Genius *chomps cigar*