SGT and Terrain

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Username17
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SGT and Terrain

Post by Username17 »

Major Developments in Terrain

Different areas have markedly different effects on encounters, and the abilities that are needed or helpful to solve them. Major impacts are on the utility of climbing, flight, movement speed, and attack range. But many other impacts are also notable.
  • Climax Forest Large trees provide a dense canopy and limited line of sight, but impact movement hardly at all. Flight is heavily restricted in its utility, because if you go high enough to be necessarily safe from melee enemies, those enemies have complete cover in return. Things that can be climbed are pretty much everywhere, meaning that creatures with climbing ability can achieve virtually complete safety from creatures without. This can result in a stalemate, as of course a creature who has climbed forgoes the ability to move much while the ground creatures can easily take full cover just a short distance away.

    Jungle Large trees combined with dense undergrowth make movement difficult and reduce visibility ranges to a few meters at most. Ranged attacks are extremely limited in utility, and climbing and flight can get you out of a combat but can't be expected to give you an attack on anything. Combat likely begins at extremely short range, and the fact that everything everywhere is difficult ground makes escaping from melee very difficult to characters who cannot teleport. Closet trolls are far more dangerous than in almost any other terrain.

    Swamp Visibility is vegetation limited, but likely extends decently far. Ground varies from hard to walk on to very hard to walk on. Ranged attacks are at a premium despite limited visibility because ground mobility is limited even more. Cover can be taken against flyers, but likely characters cannot get far without breaking cover and exposing themselves to ranged attacks from above. Trees are stunted and characters likely can't climb particularly high and are limited to modest cover from the ground.

    Hills Visibility is limited by the hills and valleys. Combat likely begins at a fair distance. There are locations that are better to have (higher ground), meaning that area control matters even though there isn't any cover to have. Flyers can see you wherever you go, and climbing is meaningless (save that it may get you up a hill faster or from an unusual direction). Kiting is very effective.

    Flatlands Visibility isn't limited at all, and characters may spot potential opponents days in advance. Kiting is basically unstoppable as there isn't any cover to have at any distance. Being even slightly faster than an enemy is pretty much equivalent to flight as far as avoiding melee is concerned. No ground means much of anything, so area control hardly matters at all.

    Tunnels Visibility is super short, and probably requires a light source than can be visually detected from far away relative to the actual limits of LOS. Flight and climbing are pretty much meaningless, because close ceilings mean that you can't use either to get out of melee range. Omnipresent choke points make area control extremely powerful. Ranged attacks are probably close to useless unless combined with allies who can hold choke points.

    Large Rooms Visibility is comically short range, and flight doesn't function unless it has hummingbird maneuverability. Climbing may be able to negate melee attacks depending on ceiling height. Cover is likely plentiful. True choke points likely don't exist, but area control is fairly strong because of corners.

    Cliffs/Mountains Visibility is broken up by large rocks. Higher ground and large drops are available, so area control is powerful. Climbing can likely get a character to a place where they can take many ranged attacks against an enemy before that enemy can escape or close. Flight is very powerful.
Paragon Terrains
In a fantasy setting there exist places that adventures and encounters can take place in that are not normally accessible without the use of fantastic abilities. These can be accessible in the Heroic Tier with specific abilities, items, or quest rewards. But they cannot be expected locations for adventures before Paragon Tier.
  • Undersea Adventure without water breathing is simply impossible. Visibility is limited even without intervening objects. Almost all creatures fly with near perfect maneuverability automatically because of buoyancy. Physical ranged attacks are reduced to melee attacks, but some magical ranged attacks work normally. Normal speeds are reduced.

    Cloud Islands Adventure without long distance flight or teleportation is simply impossible. Voids are frequent and require short distance flight or teleports to traverse. Platforms are at different elevations and ranged attacks can be fired from one to the other, but cannot be climbed between at all. Wind and solid fog act as terrain types that specifically monkey with flying characters, leading to an active flying tactical game.

    Cocytos Adventure without cold resistance is simply impossible. Brutal winds and heavy weather reduce visibility and limit the usability of flight. Characters with limited cold resistance may need to restrict their movements to covered areas lest they take cold damage in the open. Other than that, you're basically in mountains or hills.

    Inferno Adventure without fire resistance is simply impossible. Fires and smoke limit visibility. Characters with limited fire resistance have to stick to the open to avoid damage because the fire damage near cover and features is more severe. Other than that, you're basically fighting in the mountains.

    Dreamscape Adventure without oneiromancy is simply impossible. Terrain is malleable, meaning that terrain features, limits, and parameters can change on a round by round basis. The tactical situation, and the value of different kinds of abilities, will change considerably and unpredictably over time.
Palette Swap Terrains: Not everything you face at Paragon Tier will be specifically a Paragon Terrain. It is entirely possible for you to face a Paragon Threat on an open field or even in your own throne room. There are also regions that are accessible to Paragon characters that are still filled with what is tactically recognizable as terrains you could have (or possibly did) battle in at lower levels. Arvandor is basically just a forest, Duat is basically just a swamp. These regions are Paragon because they are hard to get to and have powerful creatures in them, not because the tactical landscape is itself particularly different from low level affair.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Good list to have on hand. I think OnePiece has covered most of these terrain types.

There's also extra features like "A wide river" or "A bottomless chasm"
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Post by Username17 »

The question of individual challenges is an interesting one. Currently, my Same Game Test is pretty short on higher level challenges. At the heroic tier, the basic format for challenges in a level is something like this:
  • Challenges of Level 10
  • Your path is blocked by a
  • The trap that is vexing you is a
  • You want their help, but they want a
  • The information you want is known by a
  • The target is obscured by a
  • The treasure is behind a
  • The door is sealed by a
  • To undue the curse you need a
  • The clue is in a
  • You're trying to track a
And some of those can keep going into Paragon. But path blockage, traps, and tracking just don't mean the same thing when you are pulling Scry & Die.

Major Developments in Challenges

As characters grow in level, they are faced with challenges that they must overcome or bypass in order to complete their tasks or attain their goals. Some of these challenges scale to retain relevance to more powerful characters, and some don't. The challenges that scale may scale intrinsically (the challenge to gain vital clues from local rumors is literally exactly the same whether the clues are to the location of lost sheep or the location of the lost soulgem of Dragtham), and some challenges scale through basic palette swapping (the difficulty of counter an evil spell is wholly arbitrary, and only the level tag on the spell differentiates a high level task from a low one). Still, no amount of palette swapping is going to make a pit into a Paragon challenge, because getting to the other side of a hole in the floor is not something that is terribly difficult for characters whose steeds have wings.

Scaling Challenges
  • Lifting a Curse The simplest of hexes and evil eyes can be handled by simple rituals available to simple villagers. Tossing salt over the shoulder, holding a horseshoe, or whatever. More powerful curses have more involved methods of removal such as kissing a princess or throwing a ring into a volcano. In any case, a curse can be lifted with the application of equal and opposite magic, and the level of the required magic is basically the same regardless.

    Negotiate a Truce Getting enemies to accept a peace with whatever level of concessions from either party is something that is of equal relative value and difficulty when you are negotiating an end to cattle raids by nearby Orcish villagers as when you are negotiating an end to an invasion by the Hobgoblin Khanate.

    Gather Information Clues to the current mission are of roughly equal value whether the mission is a high level mission or a low level mission.

    Research Looking things up in books is functionally identical to getting information from people directly, and the clues you get are similarly of comparable use at any level of play for the same reason.

    Call for Allies A town's mayor can be convinced of the need to commit his meager resources to a task. A Genie sultan can be convinced of the need to commit his mighty resources to a task. While the effect of getting help from a Dwarven mayor and a Genie sultan are wildly different, the act itself is exactly the same.

    Scout Getting the drop on enemies or spoiling an attempted ambush is proportionately useful at any power level.
Non-Scaling Challenges
  • Locked Door You can beat it down or pick the lock, but either one is not terribly meaningful to a character than can teleport or turn intangible.

    Damaged Bridge

    Rivers or Chasms

    Walls
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Post by Grek »

Locked Door, Damaged Bridge, Rivers, Chasms and Walls are all examples of the same challenge: Bypass Obstacle to Travel. At Heroic Tier, the obstacle is a [wall|river|chasm|forest|mountain] and you need to [find|repair|open|dig] a [door|bridge|path|tunnel] to cross as appropriate. At Paragon Tier, you gain the ability to bypass a lot of those by flying and passing through walls, so they get replaced with obstacles like "The place is too [far away|poorly known|lined with lead|far underground|on fire|high up] for me to [fly|teleport|phase|survive] there without first [learning|opening|preparing|finding] the [teleport coordinates|portal|airship|protection spell] that will fix that problem."
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Post by Chamomile »

Yeah, while some require more rethinking than others, I'd say that just about any heroic-tier problem can be reflavored as a paragon-tier problem. Of course, if you zoom out far enough, make things vague enough, you eventually get to the problem of "something is stopping me from accomplishing my goal, thus creating a sub-goal of getting around or disabling that something," which covers all possible RPG encounters at any level of play and is also completely useless to any conversation.
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Post by Grek »

Right. Don't zoom out that far. But "I need to do <x> before I can travel to <y>." isn't too much more abstract than "I need to convince <f> agree to <g> in the truce negotiations." or "I need to learn about <t> from <s>."
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Post by zeruslord »

Also, a heroic-tier encounter-level obstacle can be interesting for paragon characters as part of a bigger situation - if it takes time/spell slots/etc. and there's time pressure or if you want to bring more people or stuff than the standard paragon solution supports
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Post by flare22 »

most of the above examples seem correct but i think its worth noting that fighting in tunnels should mention that a creature with burrow speed or the ability to magically bypass walls would be able to circumvent many of the obstacles presented by fighting in such terrain
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Post by Grek »

Yeah, Solid Rock should probably be added as a Paragon Terrain.
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Post by Hicks »

Dude, solid rock is an obstacle anyone can overcome with time and a pick-axe at level one.
Last edited by Hicks on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Chamomile »

The time investment for getting through it is way too steep for level 1 characters to seriously consider having an adventure inside solid rock by tunneling from one encounter to the next. Having a downtime between individual encounters measured in months is probably going to interfere with your ability to complete the adventure while it's still relevant.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Could a battlefield be considered a terrain type? That is, a hostile force on one side, allies on another (or maybe you are with neither and trying to sneak through). Terrain in the sense that you have to navigate through big blocks of stuff that may or may not harm you.

Or perhaps at the Paragon level you are so big and strong that ordinary swords and arrows are as inconveniencing as barbed brambles or "the floor is on fire" at heroic tier.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Would a free-fall/complete aerial battle be its own Paragon terrain, the subset of a given terrain, or a form of Flatlands?
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Post by Username17 »

Chamomile wrote:Yeah, while some require more rethinking than others, I'd say that just about any heroic-tier problem can be reflavored as a paragon-tier problem. Of course, if you zoom out far enough, make things vague enough, you eventually get to the problem of "something is stopping me from accomplishing my goal, thus creating a sub-goal of getting around or disabling that something," which covers all possible RPG encounters at any level of play and is also completely useless to any conversation.
Pretty much. I don't think it makes sense to think of two obstacles as being at all "the same" if your means of overcoming them are totally different. A door that is locked is fundamentally not the same as a mountain range, even though both of them delay or prevent your progress to the other side.
Grek wrote:Yeah, Solid Rock should probably be added as a Paragon Terrain.
If you're actually having the adventure entirely in solid rock, that seems like it could even be an Epic terrain. It's a terrain where you need some sort of Earthglide equivalent just to move and some sort of Sonar Pulse just to perceive your surroundings. Caves in the Elemental Plane of Earth are one of the lowest level concepts of a planar terrain, while the actual filled in segments are about as high level a concept as exists (next to adventuring inside stars and such).

Barricades of solid rock that are between you and a thing are challenges that can be scaled by having thicker blocks of rock. A very low level solid rock challenge is just a thin wall that a strong attack can topple, while higher level solid rock challenges are just the same thing but orders of magnitude thicker so that you need to tunnel through with laser blasts or teleport to the other side or something if you want to get through before the princess dies of old age and your rescue mission is aborted.
MaskDH wrote:Would a free-fall/complete aerial battle be its own Paragon terrain, the subset of a given terrain, or a form of Flatlands?
Interesting question. I would say formless void is probably the Paragon Terrain equivalent of Flatlands. On the one hand, you actually do need some sort of special movement type (such as teleportation or flight) to make any apparent progress at all, so it's definitely a Paragon Terrain. But the complete lack of cover of any kind in any direction basically gives you the same "kiting == win" scenario that a Flatlands encounter does. Only now instead of the bear automatically losing to the horse archer if the horse archer has even a modest speed bulge, the wyvern automatically loses to the manticore if the manticore has even a modest speed bulge.

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