Doubt Villains

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Username17
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Doubt Villains

Post by Username17 »

So the villains are collectively referred to as "The Conspiracy" - even though it is very likely that there is in fact more than one group. Of that, there are five "main" branches of the conspiracy:

The Conspiracy
It makes no difference what their goals are. If these are their methods, I shall oppose them.



The Registry
No, I don't think I've ever talked to Mr. Johnson in room 304. Why do you ask?

The Registry is a series of data points, documents, bank accounts, records, and legal briefs. They are a complete paper trail of birth certificates, employment histories, school records, and bill payments. And that's all they are. None of the people in The Registry exist. It's not that they are different people hiding under those aliases, there just literally aren't any people at all. Their rooms are empty, no one actually sits in their desks or goes to their classes. But papers get turned in, they get grades, they buy and sell things, and members of The Registry vote and even die. It's hard, maybe even impossible to say how far back The Registry goes or what it wants. After all, what are you going to do? Check the old records?

The Hollow Men
He just came in and stabbed Carline! It was horrible! It was... what were we talking about?

The Hollow Men are dour and pale, and they do horrible things that no one remembers. They don't have any hair, and abhor light and color. They usually wear glasses to hide the fact that they don't have eyebrows. Their big trick is that reality overwrites itself to hide evidence that they have ever been anywhere or done anything. If they walk across a field, the foot prints will vanish. If they murder someone, records of that person having ever existed will be expunged. This sanitized history exists everywhere except the memories of people with Hyper Perception. Don't bother trying to show sleepers where Hollow Men have acted, because even if you get there in time for there to be evidence remaining, the sleeper won't remember the conversation.

The Night Terrors
I've never seen one of the monsters. No one ever has.

The Night Terrors are horrible monsters that murder people in ghastly ways while they sleep. It is presumed that they are hideous, and indirect evidence points to them having very strange anatomies and tremendous strength. Fortunately, Night Terrors die and vanish from reality if they are seen by any living person. They have the ability to mess with electrical items, meaning that lights go out in advance of their arrival. They leave no traces of their bodies and can't be photographed. So you'll have to deal with them alone because no one else believes they exist. Those who do manage to see one only see a brief flash of something horrible before it is wiped from existence.

The Metatron
A lone voice arguing for evil wins any argument against silence.

The Metatron have no physical form. They can appear as absolutely anything or anyone, but cannot touch anything or leave any physical trace (thus, they also do not appear in photographs and their words cannot be recorded). They are essentially hallucinations of whoever is near them. It is theorized that there may be some limited number of them such as seven or even just one. They commit wickedness only by convincing real people in the real world to go do horrible things - at which point those people appear to be simply delusional to the rest of society. Those who have Hyper Perception can feel places the Metatron have been, but no one else can.

The Agency
Your tax dollars at work.

The Agency exists because people expect it to. It has no offices that have been found and exists in no organizational chart for any government. Nonetheless, it has agents in every corner of the globe. People just start getting instructions from The Agency, and then they start performing covert operations on its behalf. Perfectly ordinary policemen just get upgraded to the secret police one day, and from then on they start being Men in Black. Mostly they gather information about people and events and pass them “up” to their unknown superiors, but sometimes they cover up events, sabotage things, or even make people disappear.


But there are also a series of disturbing tactics employed by The Conspiracy that I would like to go into. I would like to make it so that there are at least enough tactics that each of the conspirators could be behind one of them, but also make it so that it isn't entirely clear who is behind any of them.

The Contest
Congratulations! You're a winner!

Sometimes people get calls informing them that they have won something. And when it's a free vacation, it is usually something where they make you sit through a long commercial for buying beachfront property or something. But there is one Contest where none of the winners ever come back. They make various calls, they settle their affairs, they gradually stop talking to people, and... that's it. No one sees them again. And no one files a missing person on any of them, because it's perfectly reasonable under the circumstances.

The Extras
Wait... who was that guy?

When you go to a big party, or the mall, or a political rally, you don't know everyone there. No one knows everyone there in most cases. But in some cases, there are people who show up that no one knows. Not party crashers, or people from the next town over, but literally people that are not known by anyone. They only exist in crowds, and appear to stir up riots and spread rumors. They photograph normally, but do not appear in photos other than crowd scenes. But if you study a lot of crowd scenes, you can find that the faces do repeat – often in crowds separated by decades.

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Post by Doom »

The Breeding Program
"What a coincidence...me too!"

Everyone in a certain geographical area doesn't just talk alike or have a similar culture, they share certain unusual physical features, like being left-handed, or certain aptitudes, like playing the kazoo really well. It's not overly dominating, but defnitely noticeable, perhaps triple the population (over normal) has the feature, or a "beginning" kazoo class covers classical music. When you start to check records carefully you see that quite a few people in the area, particularly people that don't seem to have the common attributes die or vanish, taking their progeny, if any, with them, or the very young are simply sent away, or maybe nobody without the attribute ever seems to settle down in the region.

The Construction Project
"Go down about three blocks and turn left at the, er, thing."

Buildings with unusual architecture or built at precise but strange locations are to be found throughout a city, or even country. While an explanation for each building's structure/location can be explained due to zoning regulations or a river or a tree or something, examination of records shows unusual coincidences, like each being exactly 314 decameters away from each other, or in concordance with a constellation as it appeared 1200 years ago.

The Inexplicable Holiday
"It's Jubanzaa. You're supposed to burn it now."

A holiday's origin can never be really explained, nor can the customs associated with it ever be understood, and yet people accept it. But the customs of a particular odd holiday seem to change every few decades, and there's never any explanation why, and the customs seem to get darker and darker.
Last edited by Doom on Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Manxome »

The Blank Email
"Huh...<delete>."

Everyone gets spam. Most people receive more spam than legitimate email--often a lot more. The cost of sending an email is very nearly zero, so advertisers are willing to accept miniscule response rates on their mass mailings; that's just the economics of the situation.

But occasionally, there's a mass mailing that appears to be completely blank. No subject, no body, no attachments, nothing. They don't carry computer viruses (as far as we can tell), and they're not selling anything. It's hard to see how anyone could profit from that, even considering the low cost of email.

The thing is, after one of these mass mailings is sent out, the suicide rate the next week is triple the norm. And they always seem to slip past spam filters. Including filters that specifically exclude blank messages--is it possible they're somehow not blank?
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Post by fectin »

Could the Hollow Men's trails disappear oldest-first, and no piece of evidence disappear while being observed? That let's you have a story about grabbing a button off one's coat to make him leave a trail from then on, but needing to never put the button down (comedy gold as the PCs hand it around). That makes a very easy Macguffin too, and motivates Hollow Man teams to come after them.

Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy has a great model for the Metatron. Is that name supposed to be a dig at angels?
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Post by Ikeren »

New user; is there somewhere I can read more about the Doubt system (aside from the other thread about doubt herrings)?

I was able to find these threads: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51920
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51989
But I was wondering if there was more material out there.
Last edited by Ikeren on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Grek »

It's a new one that Frank's still cooking up. Those are the only threads we've got.
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Post by kzt »

The hollow men seem excessively powerful as given. "You are planning the next action when the building is destroyed by a truck bomb. You all die. The next day nobody remembers anything was ever on that block."

They remind me of SM Stirling's "Shadowspawn", in that they are sufficiently powerful that they can crush you like a bug. Yeah, I don't like them too.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I propose...

The League of Cellophane
These guys look like regular people going about their regular lives, but they actually have crazy psychic powers and are subtly going about with their plan. They coordinate telepathically, so there's no evidence that they ever actually communicate, and use similar abilities to achieve their goals. They're good, but they aren't infallible, so sometimes you catch them looking or acting suspicious.

So, that guy on the bus who looked away real fast when you caught his eye? He's responsible for your headache that started right as the bus pulled over to pick you up. That headache is the discomfort you feel while he programs some responses into you. He can't pilot you like a puppet, it'll take him your whole bus ride to finish... but even if you noticed, and even if you figured out what was going on, what would you do? Society has a system in place for dealing with individuals who brutalize a seemingly innocent person because "he was trying to control my mind."

The PC-types get strong hunches regarding members of the League as part of their general deal, but they are still only hunches.
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Post by Username17 »

So I want to do something with Straw Men. They look and act like men and women who are very serious and are extremely unhelpful. But they aren't real people at all. They have no histories, do not appear in any databases, and can't tell you any personal details about themselves. If defeated, they just stop being. Maybe leave behind some actual straw or snow.

I think that could be what the Extras are. Maybe throw in some Observer action from Fringe.

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Post by Grek »

kzt wrote:The hollow men seem excessively powerful as given. "You are planning the next action when the building is destroyed by a truck bomb. You all die. The next day nobody remembers anything was ever on that block."
There will presumably be some constraint that prevents them from simply blowing the PCs up with a bomb similar to the mechanics in place to prevent the PCs and hollow men from having shootouts instead of swordfights.

This mechanic could well be "People with Hyper Perception* cannot be disappeared with hollow man magic. If they want you disappeared, they have to do it the old fashioned way, by killing you and dumping the body in the river."

*I really dislike this name, but I have no better suggestion.
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Post by Username17 »

Hyper Perception turns out to be what the actual crazy people who think that they can see the clues to the government conspiracy in chemtrails or newspaper typos or the grammar choice of pundits are calling it these days. I don't have a better name for it either.

As to the power of the Hollow Men, it's actually much easier to fight them than it is to fight most of the other enemies. You can shoot them. You won't even get in trouble for it. I mean, while you can talk an individual who has been pushed over the edge by the Metatron down from killing a bunch of people or something, that just sets the Metatron back. You can't actually show the world that they exist or hit them with a brick.
fectin wrote:Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy has a great model for the Metatron. Is that name supposed to be a dig at angels?
It's actually a play on people who say that "The Devil Told Me To Do It!". The Devil is an angel, and the Metatron is literally the "angelic voice". So literally all they are is the Devil telling people to do something. They don't have any substance, it's just the voice.

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Post by Kaelik »

Alternatively, the hollows can't build bombs, because you have to build the bomb sufficiently in advance of using it, and then place it. But if you are a hollowman, and you leave an object someplace, it could be gone in five minutes.

So whoopsie, push the button, nothing happens. Can still use grenades, but not conventional bombs.
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Post by Thetalkingcoin »

I got two to throw out. They differ in tone, though I believe they fall within theme.

The Men Who Stare at Goats:

For some reason, there's always somebody standing at the bus station, even well past hours. Probably some homeless man, who knows. Nobody takes the bus lately anyway. Not since that one driver decided to take a greyhound full of people off the Bridge a few weeks ago. He's not near as annoying as those guys who stare at the subway maps, like somehow observing the map will speed the trains up. Watched pots never boil, and in this case watched trains seem to break down. A lot, lately. And they seem to be having worse accidents all the time. The government really needs to step in and fix the place up before a serious accident happens.

Of course, you know that is a huge pile. They aren't lost. They aren't going somewhere. They're exactly where they want to be. Accidents don't just happen while they're around, accidents happen because they're around. Trick is getting them out of town before something really bad happens. Problem is, they're just some ordinary joe to all the normies sitting around. You can't just blackjack them and take them away. Liam from a town over says you just have to stop them from looking at the maps. Should be simple enough, how many maps are there in this town anyway?

And

The Dark Tide

You're rewinding the message machine. Playing it through again. Rewind. Play through. These old message machines are the only ones you can trust, the other ones whisper when they think you're asleep. The other ones don't save messages unless they want you to hear them. But this old one keeps it's mouth shut and does it's job. Funny thing is, it's not happening today.

Jackie called you last night. You'd just gotten in from trying to recover something, anything, from the tower. Hadn't been hard, the police had been too distracted by all the blood and bits and bone to pay too much attention to the strange deposits which had replaced the evening dew on the grass. You'd been tired. You'd barely heard the message as you fell asleep.

The next morning, the message had changed. No longer calm, Jackie was crying. At least, from what you could tell.

“P...se he.... an it..... it's got.... ading aw... it's got m...”

This morning, all that was left was a half a second, voiced in pure agony.

“It hurts.”

And now the message is gone altogether. Jackie's face grows a little more dim in your mind.

You slide out the old notebooks. Carl left them to you. Somebody had to keep everyone safe. Somebody had to keep collecting what they could. Somebody had to make sure that someday, somehow, they'd know.

A half a dozen newspaper articles on individuals from the last two decades disappearing. Carl'd noticed when the articles had started to black themselves out. He'd hastily scrawled out what he could, but it was just some person who'd been slowly erased. That and an old tape of a kid who'd seen one. Stories of a writhing mass of crimson and black, that he'd barely seen from the crack in the closet doors. Descriptions of watching his mom fade from existence bit by bit. Ripped apart bloodlessly by something that couldn't think, or feel, or hear as its victims were unmade. The whole tape echoed with the sterile room of the asylum. The kid had set fire to the whole apartment building after his mom had been declared missing. He'd claimed that the thing was coming after him, and he'd done what he could to stem the tide. Even at the cost of some half dozen families who hadn't made it out. Somewhere, the thing had been buried in the rubble. Had been.

Hm.

So:

1. Psychics who cause death and accidents by staring at maps.
2. Localized anomaly that erases an individual from existence slowly and painfully, then selects a witness as its next victim.

As for the Hollows: They're ability to erase traces of their existence is tied to the fact that they're subtle in the first place. If they went around shouting in times square, their ability to obfuscate the truth would fade away.
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Post by Vebyast »

FrankTrollman wrote:I don't have a better name for it either.
Fnord-o-vision.
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Post by souran »

I still think that the game needs an antagonist faction that exists in opsition to the the players not because of their actions but because of what they are.

Something like the auditors of reality or even the fate enforcing monster from the second prince of persia game.

They don't like that the players change the outcomes of their nicely ordered universe. They can be equally antagonistic t othe other creepy factions as well.

They fit to well thematically and they have a considerable narrative history.

Consider things like: The langoleers by stephen king, the adjustment team by philip K. Dick, The episodes of the twilight zone about people rebuilding each moment etc.

Regardless of if its just a monster or a faction there should be something that finds it frustrating that the players exist, its not even about their actions except in the most peripheral way.
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Post by virgil »

Vebyast wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:I don't have a better name for it either.
Fnord-o-vision.
Time Cube vision?
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Post by Manxome »

At some point, the Hollow Men would probably benefit from a more detailed discussion on how history is "sanitized."

The big thing I notice is that some things are apparently rewritten to undo the hollow man's effect (e.g. footprints disappear), while others are rewritten as if the effect the hollow man produced was always there (e.g. someone they kill never existed). That's a very big difference, and there should be some guidelines regarding, for example, if they wound someone (without killing them), does the wound just disappear, and when? What if they kill a bug, rather than a person?

Also useful would be guidelines for actions taken by others in response to hollow men. For example, if a hollow man opens a door, presumably the door "never opened" once history is sanitized. But what if someone else opens a door for a hollow man? Is the door still closed? Do people remember some guy going over and opening the door for no apparent reason? If there's a giant fight between PCs and hollow men with a bunch of collateral damage, does the collateral damage caused by the PCs' attacks disappear, and if not, what do sleepers make of it?

Also, does the butterfly effect apply? If a hollow man kills an sculptor, does a statue the guy made change/disappear? Even if the changes only affect records (including memories) and not other objects, will the victim's associates have their personalities/habits affected by the fact that they never knew the guy, like in Chainfire? Or is that more detail than we're supposed to care about?
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Post by fectin »

FrankTrollman wrote:
fectin wrote:Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy has a great model for the Metatron. Is that name supposed to be a dig at angels?
It's actually a play on people who say that "The Devil Told Me To Do It!". The Devil is an angel, and the Metatron is literally the "angelic voice". So literally all they are is the Devil telling people to do something. They don't have any substance, it's just the voice.

-Username17
Wikipedia says it's a specific angel. Maybe. Sort of. Either way, it's enough other stuff that tying it to the Devil might be a stretch.
Also, you want to read Sanderson's trilogy either way. he is literally one of the best authors I know of at the craftsmanship of writing.

@Manxome: Rewrite reality doesn't neccesarily have to mean that things can only disappear. Tracks could disappear fom snow blowing over them or from other tracks obscuring them just as well as by slowly un-tracking.
With the sculptor, the easiest rewrite could be to something like dying from a heart attack several weeks earlier instead. That has the added benefit of making it much easier to adjudicate, and doesn't have wierd chain reactions.

Hollowness should be a PC power option.
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Post by Hicks »

virgil wrote:
Vebyast wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:I don't have a better name for it either.
Fnord-o-vision.
Time Cube vision?
The Aware; people who are Aware.
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Post by Manxome »

fectin wrote:@Manxome: Rewrite reality doesn't neccesarily have to mean that things can only disappear. Tracks could disappear fom snow blowing over them or from other tracks obscuring them just as well as by slowly un-tracking.
With the sculptor, the easiest rewrite could be to something like dying from a heart attack several weeks earlier instead. That has the added benefit of making it much easier to adjudicate, and doesn't have wierd chain reactions.
Yes, there are many other ways that they could work if we ignore the only examples in Frank's current writeup:
FrankTrollman wrote:If they walk across a field, the foot prints will vanish. If they murder someone, records of that person having ever existed will be expunged.
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Post by fectin »

Fair point, but this:
FrankTrollman wrote:
Schwarzkopf wrote:Doubt seems really interesting, but why are none of its threads in the homebrew forum and here instead? That has been confusing me.
Because at this point nothing is set in stone or finished. It's discussion, not homebrew.

I put things in Homebrew when they are finished or in need of simple proofreading.

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...suggested that the exact mechanics weren't gospel yet.
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Re: Doubt Villains

Post by Draco_Argentum »

FrankTrollman wrote:The Agency
Your tax dollars at work.

The Agency exists because people expect it to. It has no offices that have been found and exists in no organizational chart for any government. Nonetheless, it has agents in every corner of the globe. People just start getting instructions from The Agency, and then they start performing covert operations on its behalf. Perfectly ordinary policemen just get upgraded to the secret police one day, and from then on they start being Men in Black. Mostly they gather information about people and events and pass them “up” to their unknown superiors, but sometimes they cover up events, sabotage things, or even make people disappear.
http://xkcd.com/842/
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Re: Doubt Villains

Post by Niles »

FrankTrollman wrote: The Registry
No, I don't think I've ever talked to Mr. Johnson in room 304. Why do you ask?

The Registry is a series of data points, documents, bank accounts, records, and legal briefs. They are a complete paper trail of birth certificates, employment histories, school records, and bill payments. And that's all they are. None of the people in The Registry exist. It's not that they are different people hiding under those aliases, there just literally aren't any people at all. Their rooms are empty, no one actually sits in their desks or goes to their classes. But papers get turned in, they get grades, they buy and sell things, and members of The Registry vote and even die. It's hard, maybe even impossible to say how far back The Registry goes or what it wants. After all, what are you going to do? Check the old records?
Creepy and evocative but what do they do? how do you fight them? why are they villains instead of a red herring?
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Re: Doubt Villains

Post by Thetalkingcoin »

Niles wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: The Registry
Creepy and evocative but what do they do? how do you fight them? why are they villains instead of a red herring?
My take, but:

Because "They" dont. like. you.

You're messing things up when you start asking inconvenient questions. So suddenly your car is getting towed because somebody is calling in on a parking violation. Your apartment suddenly has a thousand noise complaints. Your mailed checks are disappearing. The Registry is the system incarnate, and in a way, there's no way to fight that. You just have to learn to lose properly. Don't own anything in your name. Get paid under the table. "Borrow" your friends' cars. If doubt is about you slowly being driven to doubt your place in the world, the Registry's role is to force you to forsake what simple facts of life keep you grounded to reality.
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Post by TheFlatline »

kzt wrote:The hollow men seem excessively powerful as given. "You are planning the next action when the building is destroyed by a truck bomb. You all die. The next day nobody remembers anything was ever on that block."

They remind me of SM Stirling's "Shadowspawn", in that they are sufficiently powerful that they can crush you like a bug. Yeah, I don't like them too.
How would they get said bomb? They couldn't "shop" for the bits and pieces, they'd ask for a gasoline can and the man would walk to the back room and forget why the hell he was back there.

I suppose they could steal it, but after assembling the bomb, they'd have to theoretically stay with it, because leaving the bomb behind would mean that their traces would disappear, perhaps even making the bomb vanish.

You could take it a step further and say that even bullets might vanish once they left a gun the Hollow Man shot.

Or maybe their "forgetfulness" only works when they are personally involved in an action. A bomb isn't personal enough because it's just a chemical reaction. Guns may not be personal enough. A knife, a garrote wire, or a brick/cudgel is personal enough though.
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