Pegging Sci-fi Currencies to Services

[Lago PARANOIA]

Even if you did want to have a non-fiat currency to base a political point, pegging it to energy production is pretty much one of the worst things you can use. Especially for a science fiction setting.

The amount of inflation that would be happening in your society would be completely out of control. Like, doing something like building a spaceship would cause local inflation to jump a few percentage points. You could crank up the amount of energy units per currency amount, but then that would make the black market ridiculously powerful.

Unless you specifically want your currency to be a 'ha ha look at these rubes' thing, you are seriously better off tying it to actual gold. Or even blow jobs. I seriously cannot imagine an advanced society that has currency that gets less valuable the very instant economy productivity goes up. And since this is a futuristic intergalactic society, this will pretty much apply to everything. Yes, even blow jobs. Robot hookers and all.

[Username17]

"Energy" does have the problem that as things become more efficient you need less of it to accomplish the same task. It's the same problem as Jack Vance's SVU: as your technology continues to march forward, your efficiency rises and you need less energy and manpower inputs to produce the same things or accomplish the same tasks. In short: you have deflation baked into your economy and it triggers every time people upgrade their factories or produce a new model of vehicle.

It's kind of the opposite problem from a gold base, but it is in its own way more serious. The amount of gold usually doesn't rise as fast as the economy can grow, which artificially restricts the marketplace with scarce currency and creates unnecessary recessions. But while energy is produced and consumed continuously, peoples' demand for it falls over time for any fixed standard of living. This encourages people to save rather than spend (because the energy of tomorrow will buy more than the energy of today over and above whatever interest you receive), and that in turn will cause a permanently depressed economy with a natural interest rate of less than zero.

-Username17

[Hicks]

Have the short term "solution" be that the standard of living increases with each devaluation of energy. The decadent empire falling is a standard trope in space opera and science fiction. Tying currency to energy production seems as good a reason as any to mandate increased decadence over time and inevitable economic collapse.

[Avoraciopoctules]

What if the "service" was a fancier version of the standard state execution? In the old civ, people thought that an honorable execution that included stuff like a bunch of compensated people praying for your soul absolved some of the wrong you did. Over time, things got more standardized and now you pay a fixed number of credits for the traditional execution with a higher cost to perform to the government.

[hyzmarca]

In Time was an interesting, and marginally entertaining, complete fucking shitstorm of a movie and concept.

I have to wonder why robbing time banks is an actual thing when it seems like it would be easier to just hack your timer or remove it altogether. And who the hell thought that it was a good idea in the first place 'Okay, everyone is immortal, but to compensate everyone gets an implant that will automatically kill them when a timer runs out unless it's recharged.'
I don't see that making it past Congress.

Energy economy doesn't work in a setting with perpetual motion machines providing effectively free power in finite but generous quantities physical commodities don't work when you've got energy-matter converters that can rapidly build you a car (or rice) from a template atom-by-atom. In a setting where you turn of your bit torrent client and download a new car, which your garage prints out for you (fully fueled, even), services and IP are the only things of value.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The problem with commodity economies (incl. energy) isn't that the society or even a layperson can arbitrarily change the money supply, the problem is that the changes in the money supply won't match economic output.

In a fiat economy, increasing the money supply is incredibly easy. It'll always be easier than any other commodity that you can care to compare it against. The advantage of a fiat commodity is that the people who do this are (presumably) knowledgeable about the overall health of the economy and their authority is centralized. As opposed to a gold miner, who can just be any old asshole with a pick and a pan and who will almost certainly not be able (let alone willing) to match their activity with the needs of the economy.

Not to mention that it is much easier to contract the money supply in a fiat economy than a commodity one. If you have a gold standard or energy standard or whatever, you have to draft laws and send police officers/scientists/meter readers to reclaim excess money and stop people from making more. In a fiat economy, the central bank can just make a few phone calls.

[Foxwarrior]

Aha! I see how fiat currency would fail to work in a science fiction setting. If it takes significant time to communicate between worlds, attempting to centralize one's authority over a fiat commodity is doomed to fail.

[Username17]

Aha! I see how fiat currency would fail to work in a science fiction setting. If it takes significant time to communicate between worlds, attempting to centralize one's authority over a fiat commodity is doomed to fail.

Well, in a multi-planet galactic empire scenario, the optimum currency area is obviously no larger than the area you can communicate in a reasonable amount of time. So if it takes days, weeks, or even years to send messages from one world to another, those two different worlds will have their own fiat currency (or currencies).

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Aha! I see how fiat currency would fail to work in a science fiction setting. If it takes significant time to communicate between worlds, attempting to centralize one's authority over a fiat commodity is doomed to fail.

Or the different regions could just use different fiat currencies and you could have some authority in charge of currency exchange. Like in the real world. After all, not every country in the European Union uses the euro.

[Lago PARANOIA]

By the way, Frank and my predictions of deflation and inflation aren't contradictory. It'd end up being exactly like the gold standard during 1810-1940 in history. Only it'd be much worse, because spaceships are (presumably; I'm just going by the stereotypes of popular science-fiction) a lot easier to make and harder to centralize than gold. After all, a spaceship almost necessarily has a power plant of some sort within. And a really badass one, too, if we're talking about FTL travel. So there's no reason why a person with a spaceship can't just plain make a loaded gold mine out of thin air create their own money whenever they feel like it. The long-term trend would be deflation with huge amounts of localized black-market inflation.

If the spaceships were arbitrarily stopped from generating power (why?) then the effect instead would be even more deflationary. It'd be like saying that during the 19th century the Californian and Alaskan gold rushes never happened. Imagine how bad the depressions would have been then.

[fectin]

All of Franks objections go away if you peg it to a monopoly service. Most government services are monopolies. In the US, as a strawman, you could peg a credit to the price of a stamp, or the fee for filing a patent, or whatever. I mean, it's arbitrary as hell, but it's doable.

If you really wanted to, turn currency into votes. Then it's both pegged to something and of completely arbitrary value. That does mean you're dealing in μCreds for your day-to-day stuff, and makes your money supply really weird.

[quanta]

All of Franks objections go away if you peg it to a monopoly service. Most government services are monopolies. In the US, as a strawman, you could peg a credit to the price of a stamp, or the fee for filing a patent, or whatever. I mean, it's arbitrary as hell, but it's doable.

If you really wanted to, turn currency into votes. Then it's both pegged to something and of completely arbitrary value. That does mean you're dealing in μCreds for your day-to-day stuff, and makes your money supply really weird.

That's.... gonna have some really fucking weird consequences for some cases. For stamps I think you could just make it work like fiat currency, but now mail pricing is super fucking bizarre. I don't even want to think about tying the currency to patent filing fees though.

Votes? That's tied to population growth so maybe that's not so bad. Haven't thought about it much though.

[Username17]

If the government has a monopoly on the service, you don't actually have a currency peg, you just have a fiat currency and a listed price for a government service. The government can and does sell "forever stamps", and this is as close as you could get to a fixed price for a service. But it's still not the same as a currency peg.

-Username17

[jadagul]

If the government has a monopoly on the service, you don't actually have a currency peg, you just have a fiat currency and a listed price for a government service. The government can and does sell "forever stamps", and this is as close as you could get to a fixed price for a service. But it's still not the same as a currency peg.

-Username17

But it can look like one, and if all we care about is the aesthetics then it works. Sure, it doesn't have the same crazy and catastrophic downstream effects that a real currency peg would have, but that was why the suggestion got made in the first place.

[Prak]

In Time was an interesting, and marginally entertaining, complete fucking shitstorm of a movie and concept.

I have to wonder why robbing time banks is an actual thing when it seems like it would be easier to just hack your timer or remove it altogether.

One protagonist was poor as shit, like, literally, living day to day on the time he earned for working, and having to swap time with his mom based on who would have to do what before he would get paid next, until a guy gave him a couple hundred thousand years as a social experiment/backhanded good deed. The other was a spoiled rich brat. Neither was particularly intelligent, and it's entirely possible that people are just intelligent enough to realize that messing with something connected to your heartbeat is a bad idea.

And who the hell thought that it was a good idea in the first place 'Okay, everyone is immortal, but to compensate everyone gets an implant that will automatically kill them when a timer runs out unless it's recharged.'
I don't see that making it past Congress.

Actually, I could see it passing congress assuming that the old currency was converted into time, and at a favourable enough rate that they all got to be immortal. Plus there was a shadowy world conspiracy/stock market hinted at, and it was stuffed to the gills with half assed Occupy/99% sentiment, since it came out at that time.

[MfA]

How about this ... all people have to enter one year of indentured servitude on adulthood unless it's bought off. Servants can be bought sight unseen for 1 physical credit.

(With government printing money and stimulating the economy if there is too little demand and increasing taxes and destroying money if there is too much demand.)

[Korwin]

Is there Engery-Matter conversion in this setting?

[hyzmarca]

Is there Engery-Matter conversion in this setting?

Energy-matter conversion and perpetual motion machines sufficient for everyone to have infinite free everything, at least at any rate that they would want. Personal services are the only things that have value.

Actually, I could see it passing congress assuming that the old currency was converted into time, and at a favourable enough rate that they all got to be immortal. Plus there was a shadowy world conspiracy/stock market hinted at, and it was stuffed to the gills with half assed Occupy/99% sentiment, since it came out at that time.

Let me rephrase. I don't see the entire population not rising up and murdering all of Congress if they pass that thing. This is one situation where the people who drive the tanks will be supportive of the revolution.

[name_here]

Uh, if you have energy-matter conversion and infinite free energy, you have fuck-all need for any sort of currency because you can fabricate robots to do whatever the hell you want. I mean, unless you don't have strong AI and must ask the priests of coding to grant unto you new kinds of robots.

[Korwin]

Is there Engery-Matter conversion in this setting?

Energy-matter conversion and perpetual motion machines sufficient for everyone to have infinite free everything, at least at any rate that they would want. Personal services are the only things that have value.

I'm not shure I can even imagine such an society without more detailed information.

Here are a few questions:

• Is there cloning and genetic manipulation in?
• How are criminals keept in check?
• What is even illegal?
• Is uploading your memory possible?
• Is copying yourself into another body possible?
• Does your double have the same rights as you?
• Can you upload an artificial mind into an body?
• Are there checks to prevent such ones to rebel?
• Or do they have full rights themself?
• Could I manipulate elevations with such extras?
• Are there even elevations or is it an dictatorship?

Fiat money shure looks way simpler than finding something which has still some value.

[fectin]

It's true, you could also have a de facto currency based on non-government monopoly services (or fungible services). Think cell phone minutes in Africa. Maybe that turns into an hour jacked into the coremind, maybe it's years in cryosleep. Maybe it's something abstract, like broadcast time on the pangalactic vidNet (ice cold cokes! Just 5 ns!")

[hyzmarca]

Is there Engery-Matter conversion in this setting?

Energy-matter conversion and perpetual motion machines sufficient for everyone to have infinite free everything, at least at any rate that they would want. Personal services are the only things that have value.

I'm not shure I can even imagine such an society without more detailed information.

Here are a few questions:

• Is there cloning and genetic manipulation in?
• How are criminals keept in check?
• What is even illegal?
• Is uploading your memory possible?
• Is copying yourself into another body possible?
• Does your double have the same rights as you?
• Can you upload an artificial mind into an body?
• Are there checks to prevent such ones to rebel?
• Or do they have full rights themself?
• Could I manipulate elevations with such extras?
• Are there even elevations or is it an dictatorship?

Fiat money shure looks way simpler than finding something which has still some value.

The big guys in setting are a precursor race of incomprehensible starfish aliens that have kicked everyone's asses with their vastly superior technology and forced all the other races to fall in line. Diplomacy with them generally consists of capitulating or dying, but they're very hands off toward their imperial subjects and permit self-rule within a few restrictions.

The precursors are the source of the replicator and the perpetual motion tech, both of which are black boxes that no one has ever been able to reverse engineer. They've got even more crazy tech that they don't share.

The precursors are the ones who demand the blowjob standard, for reasons related to their own terribly inhuman psychology. Their exact reasoning for this is incomprehensible, and good luck arguing with them that pure fiat is better. Everyone else using the blowjob standard because the precursors will shoot them if they don't.


Earth is contacted by the local equivalent of a couple of Ferengi con artists, who attempt to sell the a standard black box uplift package (which is usually given away for free) for 10 million blowjob, or something like that. It's a reasonable sum, from Earth's perspective, giving how amazing the technology is, but it requires re-denominating a major international reserve currency (either the USD or the Euro, with the USD being preferred) in the blowjob standard.

There's very little tech-sharing going on, and IP still has value. The different species keep their proprietary techs closely guarded. Most of what's standard is basic quality-of-life stuff handed down by the precursors.


Here are a few questions:

• Is there cloning and genetic manipulation in?
  Genetic Engineering is generally unnecessary except when dealing with a few specific diseases. Medical tech can treat the symptoms of most hereditary diseases without making such alterations and the public is generally skeptical of genetic engineering. Embryonic cloning is possible, but generally not worth the effort. You just end up with an identical baby. Replicator cloning is also possible, but illegal, since the initial scan is invariably lethal.
• How are criminals keept in check?
  That depends on what level you're talking about. On Earth, it's just like today only police have unlimited materials, so you've got things like city-wide drone nets providing constant surveillance of every public place, and response times are fast. On the intergalactic scale, the precursors have guns that shoot super-massive blackholes at relativistic velocities. They can shatter galaxies if they want to. It's generally not a good idea to fuck with them.
• What is even illegal?
  Lots of things
• Is uploading your memory possible?
  A complete scan of the brain is generally lethal and illegal.
• Is copying yourself into another body possible?
  In the sense that you can kill yourself and create a clone that thinks he's you, yes. This is illegal.
• Does your double have the same rights as you?
  A double is an independent person.
• Can you upload an artificial mind into an body?
• Are there checks to prevent such ones to rebel?
  AI tech isn't legally restricted, but it is rare. It's one of those proprietary techs that hasn't hit Earth yet. Uploading one into a living brain is a bit outside of what is possible, though you never know with precursor tech.
• Or do they have full rights themselves?
  Legally, AIs would have full rights.
• Could I manipulate elevations with such extras?
• Are there even elevations or is it an dictatorship?

The precursors might have elections, but they don't let their subjects vote if they do. On a smaller scale, different planets have different government systems. Earth is basically modern Earth in this regard.

Black box medical tech provides effective immortality, baring violence.

[Whatever]

If the government has a monopoly on the service, you don't actually have a currency peg, you just have a fiat currency and a listed price for a government service. The government can and does sell "forever stamps", and this is as close as you could get to a fixed price for a service. But it's still not the same as a currency peg.

-Username17

A nice twist on that would be if the "service" in question was "getting out of one year of jail time". Then you could have all crimes effectively be fines (if you are rich), the government makes everything varying degrees of illegal, and paying the fines to stay out of jail is just a cost of doing business. The big businesses are by definition huge criminal enterprises. Rich people have bodyguards because robbery and assassination are merely expensive crimes.

Radical criminals would include people who grow their own food without a license, artists who make their work available for free, etc.

[JigokuBosatsu]

In Time was an interesting, and marginally entertaining, complete fucking shitstorm of a movie and concept.

I have to wonder why robbing time banks is an actual thing when it seems like it would be easier to just hack your timer or remove it altogether.

One protagonist was poor as shit, like, literally, living day to day on the time he earned for working, and having to swap time with his mom based on who would have to do what before he would get paid next, until a guy gave him a couple hundred thousand years as a social experiment/backhanded good deed.

I liked this idea better when it was the lyrics to "Atrocity Exhibition."

[Korwin]

The precursors are the ones who demand the blowjob standard, for reasons related to their own terribly inhuman psychology. Their exact reasoning for this is incomprehensible, and good luck arguing with them that pure fiat is better. Everyone else using the blowjob standard because the precursors will shoot them if they don't.

Whats an blowjob for an starfish?
And whats the tech level for the rest of the galaxy? If I want to step back and use an energy source I understand and can build myself, what are my choices?

Earth ...

Is the setting Earth with first contact, or years later on the galactic scale?

Here are a few questions:

• Is there cloning and genetic manipulation in?
  Genetic Engineering is generally unnecessary except when dealing with a few specific diseases. Medical tech can treat the symptoms of most hereditary diseases without making such alterations and the public is generally skeptical of genetic engineering. Embryonic cloning is possible, but generally not worth the effort. You just end up with an identical baby. Replicator cloning is also possible, but illegal, since the initial scan is invariably lethal.

So can you gen-engineer control mechanism into your clones?
And if I wanted to engineer some nazi style super soldiers under my control I would do it somewhere in an empty star system.

[*]How are criminals keept in check?
That depends on what level you're talking about. On Earth, it's just like today only police have unlimited materials, so you've got things like city-wide drone nets providing constant surveillance of every public place, and response times are fast. On the intergalactic scale, the precursors have guns that shoot super-massive blackholes at relativistic velocities. They can shatter galaxies if they want to. It's generally not a good idea to fuck with them.

I suppose the aliens also have unobtainium scanners? The galaxy is big with many empty places...

[*]What is even illegal?
Lots of things

[*]Is uploading your memory possible?
A complete scan of the brain is generally lethal and illegal.

International waters Empty star systems? Or are there none? (Hard to belive)

[*]Is copying yourself into another body possible?
In the sense that you can kill yourself and create a clone that thinks he's you, yes. This is illegal.
[*]Does your double have the same rights as you?
A double is an independent person.

So if I brainwash a guy, digitalize his mind (and kill him in the process) I can use the master copy to create an clone army?
So if I brainwash someone to be a fully motivated hooker who gives me her money and digitialize her mind, can I use the master copy to create an clone hooker syndicate?

[*]Could I manipulate elections with such extras?
[*]Are there even elections or is it an dictatorship?[/list]
The precursors might have elections, but they don't let their subjects vote if they do. On a smaller scale, different planets have different government systems. Earth is basically modern Earth in this regard.

So its an dictatorship for the subjects on Earth for things the starfish care about.

Black box medical tech provides effective immortality, baring violence.

Sounds more like space fantasy than sci-fi, to be honest... (magic) black boxes...