Dumb Item Crafting Question

[Hicks]

This question spoils an encounter for my Hyrule Quest Game. If you are participating in that game this question and thread will spoil an encounter. I'll remove the spoiler after the encounter is over.

Look, I know we don't use item crafting out of the 3.5 DMG. But as an excercise in crazy i'm running a straight core 3.5 game, and i've run into a question about scrolls. I want to give NPC adepts cheap scrolls and have them occasionally flub the CL checks to cast them because that is hilarious. but Adepts are Divine casters and spells like Polymorph (which is an adept spell) are not on a divine list for 700gp scrolls.

Now i know that 3.5 has a weird rule where every single requirement to craft a magic item can be spread among a number of different creatures equal to however many requirements are needed. a cleric could have the scribe scroll feat, a sorcerer could have the spell known, and a monk could provide the XP needed to scribe it. but at the end of all that, divine casters can only use divine scrolls and arcane casters can only use arcane scrolls; ignoring UMD (the adepts don't have UMD).

So, if the Adept provides the Scribe Scroll Feat and gets a Sorcerer to provide the lightning bolt, is that a Divine or Arcane lightning bolt scroll with a CL of 6?

[Username17]

The scroll list in the DMG assumes all spells are scribed by people who have PC classes from the PHB. There is nothing stopping an Adept from scribing a scroll with Polymorph as a divine scroll. Similarly, there's nothing stopping a Shugenja from scribing a scroll of Lightning Bolt as a Divine Scroll. And you can really dumb shit like Warlocks scribing Raise Dead as Arcane Scrolls. If you have an in-world source of scrolls that are written by people who have weird spells on their spell list or virtual spell list or whatever the fuck, then go nuts.

As you've noticed, it's not enough for some asshole to have a spell that is on your list, they also have to have the same type of casting: arcane or divine. So Sorcerers can't use Shugenja Scrolls because they are Divine instead of Arcane, and Clerics can't use Shugenja Scrolls because of the spell-list requirement. But yeah, an Adept can use some Shugenja scrolls, subject to having the spells on their list.

And no one fucking knows what the hell happens if you take the Geomancer Prestige Class and then count as both arcane and divine for various shit. Can anyone else use your scrolls? Everyone else? I don't fucking know.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Now i know that 3.5 has a weird rule where every single requirement to craft a magic item can be spread among a number of different creatures equal to however many requirements are needed. a cleric could have the scribe scroll feat, a sorcerer could have the spell known, and a monk could provide the XP needed to scribe it.

I don't think this rule exists.

[deaddmwalking]

Now i know that 3.5 has a weird rule where every single requirement to craft a magic item can be spread among a number of different creatures equal to however many requirements are needed. a cleric could have the scribe scroll feat, a sorcerer could have the spell known, and a monk could provide the XP needed to scribe it.

I don't think this rule exists.

Agree with Kaelik.

If you're creating a magic item, you need to provide the spell in question. For non-scrolls (like a magic weapon) you can use a scroll to cast the required spell. At least, that's how I've always understood it. Looking at the SRD today I do see:

These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

Under magic armor, it says:

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spells. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Please note that there is nothing to indicate that the spell could be cast by an assistant or 'other spellcaster'. The same verbiage is repeated in all the other categories of magic item including scrolls, with the only exception being rings. Rings indicate that you should look at the specific descriptions. There does not appear to be anything in the descriptions about who can cast the prerequisite spell.

So, if the ability to cast the required spell can be performed by 'anyone nearby', that's news to me. I definitely don't see anything to support the XP cost being paid by anyone other than the creator (the one who has the feat).

But ultimately, you can solve this problem by just having an adept of sufficiently high level creating the scrolls that these lower-level adepts are using. Alternatively, you can create a cleric domain that provides lightning bolt as a 3rd level spell. There is an 'Evocation Domain' that does so that I believe is in Unearthed Arcana - you can find it in the SRD under variant rules.

So a cleric with that spell could create the scroll and an adept could use it OR an adept with that spell could create the scroll and an adept could use it. Involving a sorcerer or wizard doesn't seem to be necessary. If it is, such as you have already defined the villain as a wizard or sorcerer, I think you could look at ways for wizards to cast their spells as divine spells - if we dumpster dive enough there's probably a way to make that happen. If nothing else, you can provide an artifact that allows an arcane caster to cast their spells as either arcane or divine.

[Username17]

If you're creating a magic item, you need to provide the spell in question. For non-scrolls (like a magic weapon) you can use a scroll to cast the required spell. At least, that's how I've always understood it. Looking at the SRD today I do see:

These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

That's the beginning and end of the discussion, or at least it should be. It's entirely legit to have another caster prepare the spell in question and help out every day by expending the requisite spell slot.

There genuinely isn't a rule that lets anyone else contribute the XP costs, but then of course XP costs are shit anyway and you shouldn't use them.

But yes, a Cleric with Scribe Scroll can have a Wizard help out each day to write a Divine Scroll of Lightning Bolt, which the Cleric in question would then be unable to use (but other Divine casters with Lightning Bolt on their spell list would). This is a trick that is sometimes discussed in min/max forums because Archivists have the ability to learn spells off Divine Scrolls that aren't on their spell list. Indeed, this is literally the only reason anyone ever gives a single shit about Archivists in any context. Because unless and until they use this cheat to get a couple of genuinely good spells off of some fringe spell lists they are an atrociously bad class with no other redeeming features.

-Username17

[Emerald]

There genuinely isn't a rule that lets anyone else contribute the XP costs, but then of course XP costs are shit anyway and you shouldn't use them.

There actually are rules for transferring XP costs in the PHB2 web enhancement, but the point about XP costs being bad stands.