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[Tome of Tiamat] The Warmage
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:44 am    Post subject: [Tome of Tiamat] The Warmage Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I am going to allocate three posts to this class, so wait until three posts have been made, please.

Warmage

Wizards in general are pretty good on the battlefield. When it comes to killing lots of people at a time, casters excel at that if they feel like it. Not that a single great warrior can't hack through an army by the time everyone else has done their shoes up, but it's always the explosions of flame that people remember.

But some casters are specifically designed for the battlefield. Not only do they call ordinance down, annihilating large numbers of people at a time, but they can also take care of the stuff that only the good commanders think of: food, drink, digging trenches, building fortifications, gathering intel, making the battlefield conditions perfect. When you need someone like that, you turn to the Warmage.

Hit Points: 1d6
Skill Points: 4+Int
Base Attack Bonus: Poor
Saving Throws: Good Reflex and Will
Proficiencies: Simple and Martial Weapons, Light and Medium Armour
Armour and Casting: Proficient = AWWWWRIGHT


Level:Abilities:Cantrips1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th
01Elemental Exchange (Fire and Cold)42--------
02Create Water, Create Food53--------
03Purify Food and Drink642-------
04Energy Effect653-------
05Swift Cast 1/day, Elemental Exchange (Acid and Electricity)6642------
06Limitless Spell Force6653------
07Explosive Spell66642-----
08Energy Surge66653-----
09Weaken Defences, Elemental Exchange (Sonic)666642----
10Swift Cast 2/day, Chain Spell666653----
11Rallying Spell6666642---
12Energy Blitz6666653---
13Heroes Feast, Elemental Exchange (Force and Negative)66666642--
14Instant Fortress66666653--
15Swift Cast 3/day, Arcane Ordinance666666642-
16Energy Mastery666666653-
17Dimensional Fortress6666666642
18Hellstorm6666666653
19Dragonflight Bombardment6666666664
20Swift Cast 4/day, Arcane Siege, Win6666666665

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Last edited by Koumei on Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:39 am; edited 5 times in total
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Spell List:
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Altered Spells:
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Hicks
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:

Win: the Warmage wins the game.


I think this ability needs a boost to be level appropriate.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmm, maybe you're right. What if it allowed no saving throw?
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

More seriously...Koumei, it seems like my respect for what you write grows each time you make something new. Seriously, free food and water and the ability to make an awesome fortress? That's something Wizards should of thought of. But, no, they just see, "oh, yeah, Warmages totally just throw down fireballs and lightning bolts. All the time."

And I'm a bit ashamed to admit that if I'd written a Warmage, I would have started with how to make Evocation worthwhile and wouldn't have thought of the Warmage supplying food, water, and shelter, too.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would definitely take all the summonings off that list, there are already Summoners, Druids, and Clerics to specialize in summoning monsters, it just dilutes the War Mage theme.

Also, frankly I think the special bonus energy effects need a save, because a lot of them cause losses of actions or effective losses of action. Energy Substitution Cold on Acid Fog is just too effective (I mean, even more too effective than Acid Fog already is) if it makes people drop their stuff and cry like little girls every round with no save.

Also, I would like to not treat dehydration as if it were an energy type, because there is no such thing as dehydration resistance or consistent rules anywhere as to what dehydration damage would do in any particular situation. People should not be getting the ability to energy substitute dessication, nor apply special effects to those spells that dessicate fools.

-Frank
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus: well, that was kind of needed to make it different from the other casters that focus on elemental damage. Besides, I read the Art of War and Zhuge Liang's book on war and leadership.

Frank:
Okay, I removed the Summon Monster spells, there might be other ones that aren't that thematic that could go, too. Originally I included them for the "instant army" aspect, but 1d4+1 monsters is not an instant army so whatever.

The energy effects/surges/blitzes now allow a save to negate, unless the spell already allowed a save, in which case it's rolled into that to quicken things up.

Dehydration can now be converted to other types, just for those spells in "It's Hot Outside" and Horrid Wilting, but other spells can't be turned into it. Also, Force, Negative and Dehydration no longer get special effects, because Force is basically not resisted and strikes incorporeal, Negative is basically not resisted and can be used to heal your undead legions, and Dehydration is sort of bullshit anyway.

Anything else? The ability I was most worried about was Hellstrike - it has a big chunk of text to describe it, and calls down multiple effects over a number of rounds, but I wanted some kind of big, flashy, "finishing move" for the high levels that no-one cares about, perfect for ripping armies apart and keeping people in cover.

And I'd just been reading up on Planetstrike, so I like the idea of battles starting with the attackers dropping meteors on top of the defenders.
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Meikle641
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, one of my DMs (the one who is willing to try Tome material) feels a bit antsy about the energy sub at will for lvl 1. Namely sonic, since unlike in a psi power, damage doesn't get lessened to compensate for nothing having a fucking resistance to it.

So... His concerns:

1) Perhaps having all energy substitutions at lvl 1 is a bit much, perhaps doled out a bit slower.

2) He's bitching about the AC and BAB some. I don't see it as particularly scary, but maybe lowing armour prof to medium could help. Dunno.

Yeah, that's about it. I think it looks mostly fine, but I figured I'd relay the criticism.

I <3 the ability to make a fort and feed/water troops.
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Draco_Argentum
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Swift Cast: once per five class levels" I don't think you mean that since its so weak WotC would be proud.

Hellstorm is probably going to make the party groan the second time you use it, thats a lot of dice for one ability.
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schpeelah
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I second the substitution thing - I mean, find me a Sonic resistant creature int the lower CR range.
How about grouping the energy types into "tiers"based on how common the resistances are: 1 - Fire and Cold, 2 - Acid and Electricity, 3 - Sonic, possibly 4 - Force, Negative and Dessication. You can change the energy type to any other from the same or lower tier. The lower tiers eventually merge together as you level.

You also need to reword the swift casting ability - before I looked up the advancement table I was suspecting it was "once per 5 levels you can alter one spell on your spell list to have a Swift action casting time"

I also do not understand the purpose of Hellstorm - it's just you casting an overly long combo of spells from your list. Personally, I'd better like it if you just stole the Ogre Mage's Gargantuan Magic ability.


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Koumei
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay...

BAB changed to Poor (they make Touch Attacks/Save or X effects anyway)
Dropped Shield Proficiency

Energy Exchange broken into tiers. Force, Negative and Dessication still don't have effects and so on, and Dessication still can't be chosen. Even Force and Negative are pretty good, and it wouldn't take much convincing for me to just drop them.

Due to this, Energy Mastery is a new ability. Good for killing squads of enemies, but you can't chain it infinitely, so sending a peasant army in is not as effective as you might think.

I altered Hellstorm a bit. Now there's one large earthquake for a minute, one meteor per round (just like Meteor Swarm ones) that people indoors are immune to, and a fixed (no dice) amount of Fire and Acid damage every round that you can ignore by being in cover. So basically, if the defenders hide in their towers while your army walks up to the very edge of the area and waits, they are just fine (until buildings break open).

And then they might get Stunned so you can run in and slaughter them. I'm tempted to replace this bit with "You can elect to dig yourself into cover, gaining immunity to all effects for the duration, but counting as Cowering for the full duration and 3 turns after", so that enemy forces can say "Fuck this, we're going to die. Let's survive but give our foes a big advantage at the start of the fight."

Edit: and clarified Swift Cast as being 1/day/5 levels.

Thoughts?
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Meikle641
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Looks good to me, and my DM agrees.

DM: Yeah, that's a lot better.
DM: No dessication, and Sonic comes at about the time that slaadi are level appropriate.
DM: Not that slaadi are a regular occurence

Also, fuck you, Slaadi. Giant Frog...
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sigma999
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Levels 2 and 3 are bland.

OK, so I can make a meal in camp, so what.
How does that help in a fight? You're using the same L1 power and a handful more spells than before, none of which exceed SL 1.

I could grind palms together and make small vials of suspicious blue liquid that just might actually be Night Elf sexual fluids ...
... or the Warmage could have some kind of trap, debuff (slow movement), mobility, or combination.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Warmage does kind of exist for wars and shit. The fact that those low level abilities (and to a lesser extent, many of the other abilities) don't affect dungeoneering doesn't really bother be. Especially considering they have, you know, spells that can handle that shit.

However, when war breaks out, a level 2 guy is feeding the entire army. That's pretty awesome.

Then at third level, well, purifying food is only good because if you have food that tastes better than the stuff you can create (anything), then you can have that instead. But you also get second level spells at that level. Fuck yes, everyone loves them some Fireball up in this motherfucker.

Seriously. When you're getting another level of spells (and it's too early to prestige out), your actual class feature could be "toffee-flavoured nipples" and you're still happy, because it's another level of spells.

So level 1: fuck, it's level 1. You exist. You have spells and stuff. Level 2: Whoo, feed the army! Level 3: a cute trick, and SECOND LEVEL SPELLS! And after that, you're basically driving the pain-train at your enemies.

I get that you don't give a shit about any power that isn't "Someone explodes in a million damage", but I didn't make the class for you, so I don't particularly care.
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sigma999
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:

I get that you don't give a shit about any power that isn't "Someone explodes in a million damage", but I didn't make the class for you, so I don't particularly care.


Seriously, snarkmeister. Seriously. That's enough inaccurate accusation. You took my statements, warped it, and spat it back wrong.
I don't get what your purpose for repeating that is, but I'm done with it.
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SunTzuWarmaster
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree with the level 3 ability. Precedent: The Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Sorcerer, Beguiler, Elementalist, and Summoner 3rd level class features.

Let's face it, 3rd level is about 2nd level spells. Warmage doesn't get Advanced Learning (Elementalist, Summoner), or nothing (Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer, Beguiler), and instead gets Clean Drinking Water. That's okay.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei, two things:

1) I won't blame you for not changing it, but technically, Warmages get all abilities at level 1 via text trumps table. Technically you are supposed to say:

"At level X, Warmages can do Y." For everything that isn't level 1.

2) The energy whatever ability, "the target becomes Confused and Entangled for the rest of the encounter" is not so good as the others in effect.

Encounter is not a real term with real meaning that makes sense.

If the enemy teleports away for 3 rounds to buff, is it still part of the same encounter?

If a Balor shows up an confuses you then dies, the encounter goes on as long as the confusion, because you are still in danger or whatever.

SO what stops a Warmage from hitting people with a confusion that lasts "encounter" and then running away while that person is confused until all their friends are dead or they are cured.

Also, it seems to imply that you can't be cured at all.

I would say reword that to 20 rounds or until a (spell) is cast. With spell being something like a cure spell or heal or restoration.

I'd say just a cure spell of any kind, because it still take an action to get rid of the free rider effect, and most people aren't going to have white mages against them in every fight (or they'll be Judging eagle white mages where casting a healing spell is a terrible idea, because they should be attacking every round).

So yeah, TL:DR, change duration to a real number, and make it end on a cure spell that magically discharges their nerves.
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sigma999
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:

Encounter is not a real term with real meaning that makes sense.

If the enemy teleports away for 3 rounds to buff, is it still part of the same encounter?

If a Balor shows up an confuses you then dies, the encounter goes on as long as the confusion, because you are still in danger or whatever.

SO what stops a Warmage from hitting people with a confusion that lasts "encounter" and then running away while that person is confused until all their friends are dead or they are cured.


The problem lies within 3e core mechanics. Other games do define a beginning and end, as well as recursion.
Sorry to mention, but 4e does define an encounter, since so much of the game's mechanics operate around that definition.
Tome should then define "an encounter" if not already.
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like using anything from one to ten minutes as an 'encounter'.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sigma999 wrote:
The problem lies within 3e core mechanics. Other games do define a beginning and end, as well as recursion.
Sorry to mention, but 4e does define an encounter, since so much of the game's mechanics operate around that definition.
Tome should then define "an encounter" if not already.


You also still can't define encounter in way that a confusion duration should be phrased that way. 4e can define encounter because 4e doesn't have any effects that matter. No one can teleport a billion miles away and come back in a mere 9 seconds. No one can spend 3 seconds going to a timeless plane and then do shit and come back basically 3 seconds after they left.

What happens when the Warmage links hands with two Wizards, teleports in hits a bunch of people with a confusion effect that ends at encounter then the Wizard teleports them out.

And next round, or five rounds later, or five years later, does the same thing again?

Tome of Battle has encounter mechanics, and they still don't define Mechanic, and for good reason. A system that says "given five minutes meditation" or "after you punch someone in the face" is better than "for an encounter."
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Also, it needs class skills.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I see you are not familiar with Koumei's work.

She doesn't bother with the class skills.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:
I see you are not familiar with Koumei's work.

She doesn't bother with the class skills.


For Tome inclusion it does. How about Concentration, Craft, Heal, Knowledge (arcana, engineering, history, nobility & royalty), Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, and Spot?
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IGTN
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Really, I could see a good argument for doing away with class skills entirely, except for certain restricted skills (UMD, for instance). All they do is force classes to stay even more strictly in their niche, and class features already do that.
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