One IP to rule them all, in Hell!

[shadzar]

Reinventing the (Great) Wheel
By James Wyatt

. http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... d/20140115 .

Probably the biggest danger is in eroding the things that everyone knows about D&D—the D&D intellectual property, to put it in legal terms.

James, have you met 4th edition? You already FUCKED the D&D IP with that you fucking spaz.

as far as any consumer is concerned, nobody gives a rats ass about HASBRO's revenue stream or protecting their rights or anything like that. you see you FUCKED UP D&D already in 2008. so what is "legal" is only corporate suits to give two shits about, and the players, you know those mindless peons you think are too stupid to think for themselves and jsut buy the shit you shovel...oh wait, they won't (see 4th edition). there was NO cosmology in D&D to begin with, what YOU and WotC and HASBRO are trying to do is the Disney treatment to Star Wars, and piss all over D&D to mark your territory.

go paly with your choir boys or something you fucking moron, because you jsut do NOt get D&D, never have, never will. Frank Trollman understands it better than you do, and he is only slightly smarter than Lago and Phone Lobster!

not a single fucking customer gives a damn about your IP battle, because the majority of players of D&D, not other random shitty RPGs, do not even want HASBRO to be involved with D&D let alone WotC. go back to making Magic cards, and the MtG movie and piss off.

in case you hadn't noticed the majority is saying the do NOT want your forced cosmology, or ONE COSMOLOGY TO RULE THEM ALL just shoehorning eBerron into the Realms and what ever is more than...

relatively minor issues

to the people you expect to buy your game. in case you missed the past 4 years, 4th edition failed. it sucked worse than Lorraine Williams ass when she backed up against a wall and walked away with one of the bricks between her cheeks!

you started off so good with some section from 3rd about how it gave details for DMs to make their own and such and such, and declared you knew best for what they needed to add because the 3.x keywording system and templates...that was minor fuck up number one, but we get you don't feel D&D needs DMs, because you want more players since players outnumber DMs and can therefore buy more product.

but you TOTALLY FUCKED UP, when you come out to say that you need to make a Identity for D&D products for "legal reasons".

yes, we all know the poor editions WotC has put out, and 4th ediiton were money-grabs to empty people's wallets as they jog on the edition treadmill, but to insult people to try to claim you need to MAKE an identiy for D&D when it had one under T$R that was already a money-grubbing whore company with LW and the Blumes in charge? D&D had more life under TSR and you just still think you can do better. well YOUR precious 4th edition failed, please join Jonathan Tweet at the pink-slip line and get the fuck out of D&D.

at least SOMEONE in marketing or web team made a GOOD option on a pool for ONCE to your article...

What cosmology should the game present as the default?


There should be no default

the game is called Dungeons & Dragons, not Planmescape. Alternity failed, Bill S was fired, Monte Cook is gone. nobody wants a game based on space-faring plane hopping Buck Rogers tropes. Not from D&D at least.

the more YOU, HASBRO, and WotC genericize D&D as the generic RPG, the more you LOSE your IP. trying to focus on something that is NOT D&D like 4th edition also will cause you to lose your IP. sure you may still legally own it, but not in the minds of any gamer, they will move on away from TTRPGs and to video games, and better ones than has ever have a D&D logo slapped onto them.

you better do what MEarls claimed to do over a year ago and get back to D&D's roots, or roll over and die, and let D&D rest in peace with whatever dignity it has left after its legal battles from 1975 onward.

James Wyatt, you are the reason cousin shouldn't marry.

[darkmaster]

Now to wait and see how people who actually read Shad's posts reply to whatever Shad said.

[ubernoob]

Now to wait and see how people who actually read Shad's posts reply to whatever Shad said.

[Seerow]

Now to wait and see how people who actually read Shad's posts reply to whatever Shad said.

There's people who actually read his posts?


I generally can't get through anything he writes longer than 2 lines.

[deaddmwalking]

He misinterpreted the column again.

James Wyatt is saying 'every GM will be able to make a cosmology that makes sense for them'. The D&D books will present the 'Great Wheel' as the default (and I extrapolate that to mean the same way Pelor was a 'default deity' in 3.x).

For GMs that don't use the 'default' (and they could use anything, including numerous examples provided in the article) he suggests including the following at minimum:

That section went on to present a very simple cosmology that hit the bare minimum: the Omniverse, which included the following planes:

•A Material Plane
•An Astral Plane, an Ethereal Plane, and a Plane of Shadow
•A single Elemental Plane, made up of all four elemental types
•Overheaven, where good-aligned deities and celestials live
•Darkunder, where evil deities and fiends live

Now, personally, I don't care for D&D style active deities (especially Forgotten Realms style), but even then, if I want 'celestials', they do have to come from somewhere. So, yeah, most every campaign is going to have these things - and if it doesn't, it'll have ramifications, especially to how spells work.

[OgreBattle]

Now to wait and see how people who actually read Shad's posts reply to whatever Shad said.

There's people who actually read his posts?


I generally can't get through anything he writes longer than 2 lines.

It's Deadmanwalking's holy mission to reply to these threads whenever they come up.

[Redshirt]

Now to wait and see how people who actually read Shad's posts reply to whatever Shad said.

Being able to put Shadzar's posts on ignore was the number one reason I registered for this board instead of passively lurking.

[Hicks]

More often than not, I am convinced that anyone who responds to shadzar is actually shadzar in a different hat. After realizing that though we do not read his posts, but we do read posts about his posts, he trolls us into posting about his posts by posting a post about his post.

[codeGlaze]

It's Deadmanwalking's holy mission to reply to these threads whenever they come up.

That makes so much fucking sense!

[deaddmwalking]

It's Deadmanwalking's holy mission to reply to these threads whenever they come up.

I've decided to update my avatar to reflect my newly accepted holy mission. Thank you!

[Slade]

I do like the fact that he mentions the similarities to Greek, Egyptian at least.

[shadzar]

He misinterpreted the column again.

James Wyatt is saying 'every GM will be able to make a cosmology that makes sense for them'. The D&D books will present the 'Great Wheel' as the default (and I extrapolate that to mean the same way Pelor was a 'default deity' in 3.x).

For GMs that don't use the 'default' (and they could use anything, including numerous examples provided in the article) he suggests including the following at minimum:

That section went on to present a very simple cosmology that hit the bare minimum: the Omniverse, which included the following planes:

•A Material Plane
•An Astral Plane, an Ethereal Plane, and a Plane of Shadow
•A single Elemental Plane, made up of all four elemental types
•Overheaven, where good-aligned deities and celestials live
•Darkunder, where evil deities and fiends live

Now, personally, I don't care for D&D style active deities (especially Forgotten Realms style), but even then, if I want 'celestials', they do have to come from somewhere. So, yeah, most every campaign is going to have these things - and if it doesn't, it'll have ramifications, especially to how spells work.

the this you fail, often at is reading, but aside form that is that the planes are not really suited for D&D play.

plane of fire. how many characters and what level is required to get there? it is common to travel there? how much of the game is spent on planes?

they really dont belong and this was proven with planescape. it became something OTHER THAN D&D. i dont remember much of reading about it and will dig out something from it, but for those that do NOT wish to delve into that SETTING, they should NOT be forced to do so.

So while we're probably going to present the Great Wheel as a default, to establish some common ground as a key part of D&D lore, I plan to make sure we talk about other options as well.

yes Appendix IV exists in the 1e PHB for all to see, but it really doesnt tell you WHEN you should go there, it was jsut trying to merge the Immortals concept that came later into D&D when the levels were expanded from OD&D.

that is where 2e trumps 1e in that it removes planehopping as SOP. they made Planescape a setting for those who wanted it and let those who didnt have their fun without it.

forcing a cosmology into default D&D is also problematic be it Great Wheel for legacy and heritage, or Astral Sea, since you have to remove it and alter ANYTHING it touches for other settings, including homebrewed ones.

what if you just want a heaven and hell? well you have the hells, and can do that placing all demons devils, vampires, whatever there. WE can, but what of new players? does a BoH have to be able to let some creature through it because it is attached to an Astral Plane or can the Astral Plane just be an idea rather than a real place that you travel to or things travel from?

why does Shadowcat have to exist in D&D. she is a good marvel character in her world along with Nightcrawler, but like them and "The Greatest American Hero" they can stay int heir own worlds with the dangers of travelling through this strange other dimension without bringing John Bigbooty back from the 8th dimension or letting him escape from it because a small tear remained when passing through it.

dont FORCE Nightcrawler, John Bigbooty, Shadowcat, etc into D&D just because you want some people to be able to travel and adventure in that space between space, but allow people to just use them as ideas that allow for displacer beasts, phase spiders, BOHs as devices to use on the ONE world you wish to play on for the many people that enjoy that.

Planescape SHOULD be an option, but it should be a setting, not built into the core as a default for D&D.

do you think they should build Spelljammer into the core of D&D too since it is essentially the same damn thing?

why do these planes have to exist for EVERYONE, even those that do not wish to travel to them with things built around explicit idea that EVERYONE will travel to them?

Amulet of Protection From The Planes (Fire), can simply be something that protexts against monsters that come from that plane, not having to have a plane to travel to to prevent a PC from instantly burning when setting foot in it, because not everyone wishes to set foot in it.

design around allowing people to play the way THEY want, not forced into planehopping.

It's Deadmanwalking's holy mission to reply to these threads whenever they come up.

I've decided to update my avatar to reflect my newly accepted holy mission. Thank you!

and now you are always ready for the barrels of cocks you will be sucking with that gaping maw it has.

[deaddmwalking]

the this you fail, often at is reading, but aside form that is that the planes are not really suited for D&D play.

The this you fail, often at writing, but aside form that... What?

The planes aren't suited for D&D play?

plane of fire. how many characters and what level is required to get there? it is common to travel there? how much of the game is spent on planes?

That depends on the nature of the planes (such as composition) and location. The plane of fire could be accessed by jumping into any volcano (in some worlds), into a particular volcano (in some worlds), a special gate in some worlds, or any number of methods. If the plane of fire is defined as 'place where elementals and fire spells get their energy from' (which works for most worlds), you don't even have to allow adventuring there. It could be a plane of burnination and even if you could go there, why would you want to? Being encased in burning fire with no up, down, ground or any solid material doesn't seem like a fun place for adventuring. But the City of Brass (which could be placed on a plane of Fire more like the 'material plane') is absolutely a place you could adventure.

You can choose not to have a plane of fire (or any elements), but then, at a minimum you have to figure out where summoned elementals come from. It doesn't HAVE to be a place (accessible or not). You could, for instance, require that summoning a Fire Elemental requires having a fire - essentially you're 'animating' existing fire with malevolent intent. And that can work. Applied to water elementals, that would more closely depict the magic that attacks the Nazgul as they cross the river, or the raging river-god that destroys the bridge in Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian.

they really dont belong and this was proven with planescape. it became something OTHER THAN D&D. i dont remember much of reading about it and will dig out something from it, but for those that do NOT wish to delve into that SETTING, they should NOT be forced to do so.

And they're not. And they've never been. And James is saying they won't. Every world can conceivably have a different cosmology, including different planes and/or a different arrangement. Faerun will have a different set of planes than Eberron, which will be different than Greyhawk. As a DM, you can either steal one of the existing cosmologies they present (if you like it), or choose a totally different cosmology. And James Wyatt also points out that even if you have a cosmology in mind, it will not usually be directly verifiable by the PCs. In that sense, you have a 'model', and as long as it explains what the PCs observe, that will work well enough. You could even change the cosmology from one session to the next, and if the PCs can't tell the difference, then the differences don't actually matter.

Which basically means: you can do whatever you want, but here are a few ideas to get you started.

yes Appendix IV exists in the 1e PHB for all to see, but it really doesnt tell you WHEN you should go there, it was jsut trying to merge the Immortals concept that came later into D&D when the levels were expanded from OD&D.

And this is relevant because...?

that is where 2e trumps 1e in that it removes planehopping as SOP. they made Planescape a setting for those who wanted it and let those who didnt have their fun without it.

I don't have my books handy, but I'm pretty sure plane shift was a spell in the 2nd edition Player's Handbook. I don't know where it could take you, but pretty obviously, it was to another plane. You could remove planes from your game, completely, and just choose not to explain how 'instantaneous travel' happens, and such, but even if you don't explain what the other planes are, just having the ability to disappear and reappear 400 feet away without passing through the intervening space (including passing through solid walls) implies 'being somewhere else'. Whatever that state of 'nonexistence' is, it's easy to imagine it as 'being somewhere else' which is all that planes are for, conceptually.

forcing a cosmology into default D&D is also problematic be it Great Wheel for legacy and heritage, or Astral Sea, since you have to remove it and alter ANYTHING it touches for other settings, including homebrewed ones.

And not having ANY cosmology means you have things that work with no explanation. Personally, I prefer to have an explanation that I can later change, rather than having to create something from whole-cloth. Especially when it is easy to change and there are lots of examples of how to do exactly that.

what if you just want a heaven and hell? well you have the hells, and can do that placing all demons devils, vampires, whatever there. WE can, but what of new players?

What? You think the new players can't ignore all the Blood War stuff? I think they can.

does a BoH have to be able to let some creature through it because it is attached to an Astral Plane or can the Astral Plane just be an idea rather than a real place that you travel to or things travel from?

What's a BoH? But yes, the Astral Plane can be 'just an idea'. You don't have to let Players go there. If it doesn't exist as a 'physical place', you probably CAN'T go there. If it DOES exist as a physical place, you probably could. If you accept it as a physical place, it could take virtually any form. It could be a boggy island with pools that lead to a variety of worlds (like the Narnian space between worlds), or it could be a 'sea' with sailors and islands made out of the physical remains of forgotten deities. Whatever floats your boat. Whatever you do, new players aren't likely to encounter it until they're more experienced (since all the default ways to travel to another plane - ANY PLANE - are high level. As you explained earlier today, increasing level ramps up complexity. New players shouldn't ramp up to a level of complexity they're not yet ready for. But even then, having an established 'default' is easier for them then suddenly being confronted with the need to create a cosmology from scratch.

why does Shadowcat have to exist in D&D. she is a good marvel character in her world along with Nightcrawler, but like them and "The Greatest American Hero" they can stay int heir own worlds with the dangers of travelling through this strange other dimension without bringing John Bigbooty back from the 8th dimension or letting him escape from it because a small tear remained when passing through it.

This seems random. I really don't know what you're trying to say, despite understanding each individual word. Maybe it would help if you explained why a 'default cosmology' that was assumed to be in place unless the GM chooses otherwise mean 'Shadowcat has to exist in D&D'?

dont FORCE Nightcrawler, John Bigbooty, Shadowcat, etc into D&D just because you want some people to be able to travel and adventure in that space between space, but allow people to just use them as ideas that allow for displacer beasts, phase spiders, BOHs as devices to use on the ONE world you wish to play on for the many people that enjoy that.

Okay. Now where is James Wyatt saying you can't do that? Because he's actually saying they're not going to force anyone to use their default cosmology. Did you miss that it was the whole point of the article? Not using the cosmology 'has some small problems', but forcing everyone to use the default cosmology has more problems. The central point of the article is that they're not going to force anyone to use the default cosmology, but they'll include one, because they pretty much have to. You know, for new players, or people who are playing on 'published worlds'.

Planescape SHOULD be an option, but it should be a setting, not built into the core as a default for D&D.

Maybe 'built in' means different things to different people.

do you think they should build Spelljammer into the core of D&D too since it is essentially the same damn thing?

When I play D&D, I play on a world that is not connected to any other D&D worlds. We don't have Spelljammer. Here's the thing: you can use any cosmology that makes sense. In 'Spelljammer', Krynn and Oerth can be connected by the phlogiston. In Krynn, there doesn't have to be any phlogiston, and nobody can come from the 'Spelljammer' world. You choose whichever cosmology works for your setting. The fact that it leads to inconsistency (in some cosmologies, Krynn is connected to Oerth, in others there is no connection at all), isn't actually a problem. Any more than having a gaming group that killed Elminster has any effect on any other group playing in the Forgotten Realms.

why do these planes have to exist for EVERYONE, even those that do not wish to travel to them with things built around explicit idea that EVERYONE will travel to them?

Some settings (like Planescape) require a Planar Cosmology. Since they want to win back all the players of older settings, they need to include the Planescape cosmology SOMEWHERE.

Amulet of Protection From The Planes (Fire), can simply be something that protexts against monsters that come from that plane, not having to have a plane to travel to to prevent a PC from instantly burning when setting foot in it, because not everyone wishes to set foot in it.

Okay. But for those settings where planar travel is assumed (like Planescape), it wouldn't make sense that an Amulet of Protection from the Planes (fire) doesn't protect you while on the Elemental Plane of Fire. But if you use the suggested setting where all the elemental planes are mixed together into a single place (raw chaos), that item wouldn't make sense, either. Since they're going to allow whatever cosmology makes sense for your world, including suggestions for how to do that, I don't see your issue.

design around allowing people to play the way THEY want, not forced into planehopping.

That's the central point of the article. Yes.

and now you are always ready for the barrels of cocks you will be sucking with that gaping maw it has.

Hugs and kisses.

[Atmo]

Can cosmology be used to munchkin something? No? So why bother?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Cosmology can totally be used to munchkin something. The poster child for planar shenanigans is variable timeflow, but you can also do hilarious stuff with portals to endless expanses of lava or water. Or trivialize certain material resource restrictions.

[hyzmarca]

Cosmology can totally be used to munchkin something. The poster child for planar shenanigans is variable timeflow, but you can also do hilarious stuff with portals to endless expanses of lava or water. Or trivialize certain material resource restrictions.

You can also play havoc by jumping between worlds with vastly different tech and magic levels.

[Scrivener]

when appendix IV....

Maybe it's time to give up when you start citing 1st ed appendixes as proof of your misguided and banal point.

[shadzar]

yes Appendix IV exists in the 1e PHB for all to see, but it really doesnt tell you WHEN you should go there, it was just trying to merge the Immortals concept that came later into D&D when the levels were expanded from OD&D.

And this is relevant because...?

that is where 2e trumps 1e in that it removes planehopping as SOP. they made Planescape a setting for those who wanted it and let those who didnt have their fun without it.

I don't have my books handy, but I'm pretty sure plane shift was a spell in the 2nd edition Player's Handbook. I don't know where it could take you, but pretty obviously, it was to another plane.

too much shit and too drunk to read it all....

it is relevant because it didn't really present any reason to go to planes other than they exist. until MotP came out to give something more than just fields of Fire or another cavern full of demons and devils and modrons, or Planescape, there really is NO planes to speak of. it is all the same as the Prime Material Plane. so the planes dont matter worth a fuck all for most D&D games except a place to pull creates from or to send them to...

priest gets 1 level 5 spell at level 9

When the plane shift spell is cast, the priest moves himself or some other creature to another plane of existence.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

goodbye BBEG/Strahd/Tarrasque/whatever, go live on another plane. PCs never had to go to another plane, you just move a monster there and be done with it, congrats collect XP.

D&D doesnt need planes for Shadowcat to travel too, since EVERYTHING can be explained to be on the world you start in. that is all the default game needs. play planescape if you want to planehop and leave if the fuck out of most peoples games as actual places.

any game that has mention of the Mists of Ravenloft in rumor and legends doesn't mean that your players will actually go there, it could easily just b e a place where things are sent through that are no longer welcome there such as displaced rulers, or thrown away followers or whatever.

D&D doesnt need planes, nor a default cosmology at all because it doesnt need religions be defined. that is what settings are for, not core medieval fantasy D&D. and that is what D&D should be, not clusterfuck fantasy that has kender riding warforged in space looking for the next planar portal to go through to see some dragonbewbs.

[deaddmwalking]

You do realize that 'D&D' includes like a dozen or more supported settings and they do need religions and many of them feature planes quite prominently?

You don't NEED planes in your personal setting, but enough people do that they actually have to include them. But they're deliberately making cosmology flexible so you can do whatever you want...

Put another way, they are going back to the way it was in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition and repudiating 4e's Astral Sea 'everyone is the same' bullshit.

Or, you know, exactly what you want.

[fectin]

I'm more confused than usual. Why is WotC is tracking shadzar down, and forcing Buckaroo Bonzai villains into his game?!

That's not even a Hasbro Property.

[K]

Cosmology can totally be used to munchkin something. The poster child for planar shenanigans is variable timeflow, but you can also do hilarious stuff with portals to endless expanses of lava or water. Or trivialize certain material resource restrictions.

You can also play havoc by jumping between worlds with vastly different tech and magic levels.

Basically just read Nine Princes of Amber.

[Maxus]

I'm more confused than usual. Why is WotC is tracking shadzar down, and forcing Buckaroo Bonzai villains into his game?!

That's not even a Hasbro Property.

Shadzar just inspires that sort of emotion. A world with an unhappy Shadzar is a happy world.

[TheFlatline]

I could have sworn Gate was a 2nd ed spell. My 2nd ed handbook is in storage so I have no idea but I recall games where it made an appearance.

[JigokuBosatsu]

dont FORCE Nightcrawler, John Bigbooty, Shadowcat, etc into D&D

It's pronounced Big-boo-TAY!

[Archmage]

Can cosmology be used to munchkin something? No? So why bother?

Shadzar pines (or at least pretends to pine) for some Platonic ideal of D&D where the game has literally no content except what you personally make up for your gaming table, but the game "D&D" still exists and you can tell people "we're going to play D&D" and they will have any fucking clue what you mean.

TSR/WotC/Green Ronin/The Fonz can publish sourcebooks or whatever if they want to, but D&D can't have a "canon" or an implicit default setting. They can only publish these sourcebooks if someone puts a big orange and black sticker on the cover that says WARNING: THIS BOOK IS OPTIONAL AND YOU DO NOT NEED IT TO PLAY. YOU CAN MAKE UP YOUR OWN STUFF INSTEAD OF USING THE MATERIAL IN THIS BOOK. IN FACT, THIS BOOK IS A WASTE OF YOUR MONEY BECAUSE YOU SHOULD BE USING YOUR IMAGINATION INSTEAD. Because by producing setting books, you give players expectations about what D&D worlds are like, and that's bad because WHARRRGARBL.