The concept of level

[Roy]

Ok. Except we're talking about normal humans trying to do Spider Man's job, so the face Green Lantern can do it better, and Superman still better is nice and all, but the point is each person needs to at least be a Spider Man, and when none of the rest of em are you have to be a Green Lantern or even a Superman to make up for it.

The PCs aren't the ones who pick the job. It's the GM. And again, things are relative. What can be an exciting combat encounter for one party can be over in a single round when you add the munchkin. So, if a GM wants to have an exciting encounter, he has to build towards the munchkin, which ruins everyone else's fun. Party balance actually does matter, which is the same reason you don't have games where one character is level 5, another 15, and the rest are 8.

It's a superhero game. The minimum is 'spider man'. And while it's possible it will be set to 'green lantern' or 'superman' instead that just makes 'normal human' further behind, and makes the one player with a decent character have to work harder to compensate for the gimps weighing him down.

[Username17]

I implore you to reread this part of the OP:

Level is an indication of power. If someone is more powerful than someone (not powerful in different ways, but meaningfully more powerful) that means they are higher level.

While he did make a single statement about PvP stuff, that was not the fucking point at all.

The part you've been arguing against was just a restatement that mischaracterized his point.

I've read the OP. And if he had just left it at the quoted portion, there wouldn't even be an argument going on. He went on and made his point about PVP, the point which is really obviously wrong. And Mauver pointed out that he was really obviously wrong and in exactly the manner in which that point was really obviously wrong... and Ubernoob angrily and vehemently defended... not the statement you claim is his thesis statement, but the additional portion in solitary glory. The part that is really and obviously wrong.

So... no. I'm not mischaracterizing Ubernoob in the slightest. He has repeatedly, explicitly, and adamantly confirmed that he does in fact believe that having any particular ability set at the level you are should give you no relative advantage or disadvantage in a direct confrontation with a different character of the same level. Whether they have a different ability set or not.

He really said that. And you trying to take his bullshit antics and sanitize them into a position that makes any fucking sense at all is actually a Straw Man on your part. You are asking me to argue with an argument that Ubernoob is not making. Which is a tactic normally used to make someone appear to be wrong by attacking a weaker argument than the one they actually support. But propping someone up by defending an argument the person didn't make is still basically the same thing. And still a totally dishonest and unacceptable tactic of argument.

Ubernoob came out in defense of asolute batshit crazy. At length. Repeatedly. And explicitly. And PhoneLobster agreed with him. You do not get to make me agree that he is "right" just by claiming that he didn't actually mean all that shit he said that was wrong.

-Username17

[Apalala]

It's a superhero game. The minimum is 'spider man'. And while it's possible it will be set to 'green lantern' or 'superman' instead that just makes 'normal human' further behind, and makes the one player with a decent character have to work harder to compensate for the gimps weighing him down.

Okay....but you're the one who said that they're normal humans playing in a superhero game, which makes zero sense in the analogy because, for the third time, these things are relative.

A level 5 party that can enjoy a CR 5 encounter. That sounds dandy to me. A level 5 character that can solo a CR 10 encounter in one round, matched with the same party. That sounds like ass.

[Hicks]

Kaelik, JE doesn't need me to make his points. I Agree with JE, I nearly always have and nigh always will, in this case insomuch as a PC will always try to fight in a manner advantageous to that PC and will curbstomp any encounter that is not fighting to the encounter's advantage against that PC when that PC is fighting to their advantage. incidently, I also nearly always agree with Frank (as relates to game design, theory, and implementation) and nigh always will.

[Hicks]

Whoops! It was bound to happen. First Double Post Evar!

[Doom]

I'm not sure where JE picked up the idea that challenges of your own level in CR are "mook" characters. According to the CR guidelines a CR 7 character should be about equal in ability to a level 7 character. Which means that if you're dwarfing CR 7 characters at level 7 100% of the time (rather than beating roughly 50% like is the ideal), you're totally out of line with what is expected of you at that level. Something of your level in CR should not be a "mook", it is supposed to be just as good as you are.

...Are people still seriously arguing that the idea of "combat guys" versus "skillmonkeys" or "roleplaying characters" is a good idea?

It's another problem of DnD4.0's "words mean whatever we want them to mean" mentality. In DnD4.0, an 'equal' challenge encounter is supposed to be very easy, unlike in, well, Dungeons and Dragons.

[Kaelik]

Frank:

I said Uber mischaracterized his own argument, not that you did. His later defenses I'm attributing to being too stubborn to admit fault when he said the wrong thing, a trait not uncommon on TGD and one I in particular have a great deal of familiarity with.

Kaelik, JE doesn't need me to make his points. I Agree with JE, I nearly always have and nigh always will, in this case insomuch as a PC will always try to fight in a manner advantageous to that PC and will curbstomp any encounter that is not fighting to the encounter's advantage against that PC when that PC is fighting to their advantage. incidently.

And what I'm saying is that you are fucking wrong. Provably demonstratively wrong.

An exact mirror of one character is a valid CR = Party challenge.

So the only way you can ever claim that a level 7 character should be able to treat CR 7 monsters as mooks who he one rounds but can't one round him is if you honestly believe that:

Kore the Barbarian is so good that he can stand face to face against:

Kore the Barbarian
Kore the Barbarian
Kore the Barbarian
Kore the Barbarian

And have a 50% chance of winning.

And if you believe that, you are literally so fucking crazy that my only recourse is to attempt to translate that into Giant Frog, because that statement is in fact you saying:

A == ~A.

[God_of_Awesome]

It's more like JE is saying PC > CR. "An optimally built 7th level PC should steam roll a CR 7 challenge. A 7th level Fighter is more of a CR 21 or some shit and two 7th level Fighters would equal each other." - JE, paraphrased.

I don't agree with this opinion but I do think you're unfairly strawmanning him.

[Kaelik]

It's more like JE is saying PC > CR. "An optimally built 7th level PC should steam roll a CR 7 challenge. A 7th level Fighter is more of a CR 21 or some shit and two 7th level Fighters would equal each other." - JE, paraphrased.

I don't agree with this opinion but I do think you're unfairly strawmanning him.

Except that is literally impossible to say, because an exact motherfucking mirror with the exact same gear is a legitimate CR 7 challenge under Tome rules.

Tome even gets rid of the Consumables vs Constant items distinction and straight gives you:

An exact duplicate of your character with all the same feats and items is a CR 7 challenge for the level 7 party.

So if you, the level 7 Fighter can one round yourself, without being threatened by a one rounding from yourself.

Then A == ~A.

[Roy]

It's a superhero game. The minimum is 'spider man'. And while it's possible it will be set to 'green lantern' or 'superman' instead that just makes 'normal human' further behind, and makes the one player with a decent character have to work harder to compensate for the gimps weighing him down.

Okay....but you're the one who said that they're normal humans playing in a superhero game, which makes zero sense in the analogy because, for the third time, these things are relative.

A level 5 party that can enjoy a CR 5 encounter. That sounds dandy to me. A level 5 character that can solo a CR 10 encounter in one round, matched with the same party. That sounds like ass.

I was playing along with your analogy, using that as my method of illustrating that relative or not, there is a minimum power and I was talking about a situation where the weak players are below even that minimum, thereby necessitating someone be stronger than that baseline to make up for the dead weight.

Or if you'd like to tie it into level they're the guys who show up to a level 10 game with level 3 character stats.

[God_of_Awesome]

Except that is literally impossible to say, because an exact motherfucking mirror with the exact same gear is a legitimate CR 7 challenge under Tome rules.

Really? Then I suppose JE didn't read that rule because he's obviously not writing under that assumption.

I think that makes sense but JE doesn't.

[ubernoob]

//

[RandomCasualty2]

And what I'm saying is that you are fucking wrong. Provably demonstratively wrong.

An exact mirror of one character is a valid CR = Party challenge.

Yeah, for a PC, your CR is equal to your level and an encounter of CR=your level is supposed to be on average a 50/50 affair. That's the whole basis of the CR system. And that's also the biggest balance principle of 3.5.

if you steamroll encounters of CR=your level then you've basically broken the game since your character is way higher than the CR system expects him to be.

[Hicks]

And if you believe that, you are literally so fucking crazy that my only recourse is to attempt to translate that into Giant Frog, because that statement is in fact you saying:

R -O - F - L - M - A - O

That was so funny, I fell out of my chair.

Dude, just stop while your behind. You've tried to misrepresent my position before, and you are doing it again.

I Agree with JE, I nearly always have and nigh always will, in this case insomuch as a PC will always try to fight in a manner advantageous to that PC and will curbstomp any encounter that is not fighting to the encounter's advantage against that PC when that PC is fighting to their advantage.

And that means that I can disagree with him, and if my qualifying statement is not met in this instance, I do disagree with him. All I said was "If he agrees with me, I agree with him". But I can't even trust you to represent or summarize JE's position because you have a long history of misrepresenting positions due to a lack of reading comprehension. I don't even strongly care what JE's point is, but I know you'll do your damnedest to distort it or outright misrepresent it.

But all that is irrelevant, because I have my own position regarding equal CRed opponents:

• A PC will always try to fight in a manner advantageous to that PC and will curbstomp any encounter that is not fighting to the encounter's advantage against that PC when that PC is fighting to their advantage.

An X level Barbarian and a X level Griffin Archer Knight are both totally hardcore, and will both totally kill the other in one round when fighting to each's own advantage, and not break a sweat doing so. Both will totally die and be eaten like a thanksgiving turkey if caught out of their element. Against a rogue's gallery of equivalently CRed monsters, both the Barbarian and the Griffon Archer Knight have a 50% chance of outright death, but the % is not a rule but a guideline, breaking down and varying the % above or below 50% as the encounter is formed depending on whether or not the character is allowed by the encounter to fight to their own advantage.

---

God_of_Awesome: CR is an approximate guideline at best, that is assigned by gut instinct and nothing more; it is right there in the back of the Monster Manual. The classic example of the failure of the CR system is the Giant Scorpion; at any equivalent level, it is an unholy terror in melee, and will totally murder the entire party if they are locked in a closet with it (3 attacks, improved grab, constrict, and Con poison). HOWEVER, a mounted horse archer with a barrel of arrows of any level (even first level) in a terrain where he may open the range of the combat destroys the Giant Scorpion all day, every day full stop. The CR system is an idealized guideline and nothing more, if either the party or the monster has any sort of positional or type advantage it is basically meaningless.

Use CR as the guideline it is, but remember that it breaks down swiftly and completely with just the slightest use of tactics.

[Kaelik]

I Agree with JE, I nearly always have and nigh always will, in this case insomuch as a PC will always try to fight in a manner advantageous to that PC and will curbstomp any encounter that is not fighting to the encounter's advantage against that PC when that PC is fighting to their advantage.

And that means that I can disagree with him, and if my qualifying statement is not met in this instance, I do disagree with him. All I said was "If he agrees with me, I agree with him".

If you don't agree with what he explicitly said earlier in this thread, why did you say that you agree with him?

WTF? Am I the only person that has ever read anything JE has ever said?

MURGAWAHFUCK!

You don't have any idea what JE's position is, Frank doesn't have any idea what his position is.

Fuck it. He does say things, they are retarded. You are honestly better off not reading anything he says, so you should keep doing that, but you shouldn't claim to agree with him when you don't even know what he has said.

[God_of_Awesome]

Sometime I don't think you read what he says. You skim over it and flanderize it. Honestly we could shoot such accusations back and forth at each other without conclusion.

[Kaelik]

Fine, since nobody else is even capable of reading what JE actually says, and what I am telling you he says from reading him is fucking retarded that the only possible answers are horrible strawman or JE is a fucktard. I will present this by explicitly quoting his own words, and putting slightly more coherent sentences of summary for anyone to disagree with next to them, that, amongst other things, don't include Walls of Text about how great he is.

I think that an other main difference is that I expect characters to have the same amount of lethality at higher levels, as they did at lower levels.

Killing a Fire Giant, or two, every round should be possible at 11th level play.

Summary. A Level 11 character should kill one or two CR 10 enemies per round.

No qualifications about "From range" or "If they shit up the right way." or "Except people fighting the way that is advantageous to the Fire Giants."

Your average level 11 Fighter should kill one or two CR 10 enemies a round.

Assumptions I make that are based on further statements made later:

1) A fire Giant should not be able to one round an average level 11 Fighter.
2) Everything that applies to level 11 Fighters here also applies to level 10 Fighters.

My statements:

I agree that Fire Giants shouldn't last that long against equal powered people, I do not agree that they should not be able to kill you in the same time it takes you to kill them.

Only named characters should last an appreciable amount of time in a fight.

Having mooks last more than two rounds against equal level PCs means that they mooks have some sort of special defense (puzzle monster)

This is fairly self explanatory and doesn't mean anything without a further definition of "Mook" that is upcoming.

When I say mook, I mean, everything that wasn't supposed to talk to a PC, or a BBEG. Fire Giants in a lvl 11 game? Mooks. Rhemorazzes at lvl 7 games? Mooks. CR 15 Red Dragons in a lvl 15-16 game? Also, mooks.

The First part is pretty expansive, so I won't deal with how you could fight something that doesn't talk, isn't a BBEG, but is a big deal.

However CR 15 Dragons are mooks to a level 15 party. And are specifically used in similar example to earlier statements about Fire Giants.

Assumptions derived from this:

A level 15 Character should kill a level 15 Dragon in one or two rounds.

My comment:

Again, fine, but since they are explicitly defined as equal power, they should kill you in the same time.

The only thing that the PCs should ever care about, are named encounters.

If a "mook" who is definitionally my equal, could kill me in one round because I could kill them in one round, that would make them something I care about.

From this, I derive that he does not expect the CR 15 Dragon to be able to kill him in a single round, (or two) even though he can kill it in two rounds.

IE, this is part of were I derive his CR inequity.

I feel that trash mobs are trash, and don't matter, so if the PCs can kill them in 2 rounds; then so be it.

Now he is equating the earlier kill time of "mooks" to "trash mobs" which comes with lots of additional assumptions, including that they come more than one at a time, usually in numbers equal to or greater than the group.

Now the party of Four is facing multiple CR = Level monsters, and they still don't care about the fight, and are expected to win with not only no causalities, but little resource expenditure.

Now, sub out "CR 15 Dragons" with "Level 15 Fighters" and "party" with "Level 15 Fighters" because these are in fact defined as equal under the CR system.

Now you have:

Four level 15 Fighters should be killed in two rounds by four level 15 Fighters who "don't really care about the fight" and "just win and move on" which I'm going to assume means not taking casualties.

In conclusion:

A == ~A

Giant Frog.

[Kaelik]

Sometime I don't think you read what he says. You skim over it and flanderize it. Honestly we could shoot such accusations back and forth at each other without conclusion.

And yet, you apparently can't even tell me what he actually says. So how would you know if I was wrong, since you apparently have no idea what he says?

[God_of_Awesome]

Now, sub out "CR 15 Dragons" with "Level 15 Fighters" and "party" with "Level 15 Fighters" because these are in fact defined as equal under the CR system.

Again, I don't agree with JE on this but I think he's saying a Level 15 Fighter IS NOT a CR 15 Encounter. This is stupid, but JE believes that by virtue of it being a PC class it has so many times higher its CR, like say PC = CRx2. Granted, that's bullshit and ruin the entire point of CR but it's not entireley nonsensical.

[PhoneLobster]

What?

RPS design is regularly spouted on about by Frank and co as a means of creating a balanced game. Which it isn't because its Role Playing we are talking about here and players can manipulate encounter and action types.

Being strong against Rock but weak against Scissors is exactly like taking a Color Blind disadvantage to gain +2 attack with Great Swords. And since the second is widely regarded as bad game design it's utterly hilarious that the first is so popularly believed to be the height of balanced game design.

You make a nothing connection and then throw out ad hominems? Candle sniffing fuckfence, go climb a wall of dicks.

Thats what this board has devolved to. Thats what Frank likes because he'd rather do that and claim its proof that horses cant go inside or "average" is a term meaning "number he just picks".

I just advised someone else not to bother making the argument because this place is overrun with brown noses like you. Do you think I intend to not follow my own advice?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Being strong against Rock but weak against Scissors is exactly like taking a Color Blind disadvantage to gain +2 attack with Great Swords. And since the second is widely regarded as bad game design it's utterly hilarious that the first is so popularly believed to be the height of balanced game design.

Why is this that bad game design? If you're playing in a game where you stealthily infiltrate jungles armed with only a sword armed it may in fact be a perfectly fair trade.

RPS isn't perfect, but it is in fact handy if you want to have situations where you regularly rotate people in and out of the hot seat/winner's circle without favoritism. The problem of course is that in your example you're tacitly assuming that Swords > Seeing which is just not true for all games--your example verges on strawman, PL.

[Mask_De_H]

What?

RPS design is regularly spouted on about by Frank and co as a means of creating a balanced game. Which it isn't because its Role Playing we are talking about here and players can manipulate encounter and action types.

Being strong against Rock but weak against Scissors is exactly like taking a Color Blind disadvantage to gain +2 attack with Great Swords. And since the second is widely regarded as bad game design it's utterly hilarious that the first is so popularly believed to be the height of balanced game design.

No. No it's not. It's like being weak to water but strong against wood. It's like being bad in close combat but good in long range. It's a basic flowchart of power balance, that is used in some form in general game theory. If the pure 100% success thing is problematic, then

do it like Pokemon; your attack types get Rock, Paper, or Scissors and hitting on type/off type incurs some sort of numerical change. Making someone a Rock type and only allowing them Rock moves* is not good, giving somebody Rock, Paper, and Scissor* moves is good.

Thats what this board has devolved to. Thats what Frank likes because he'd rather do that and claim its proof that horses cant go inside or "average" is a term meaning "number he just picks".

I just advised someone else not to bother making the argument because this place is overrun with brown noses like you. Do you think I intend to not follow my own advice?

What the hell are you on about? You came in accusing me of being a dickrider when I was just giving my two cents. Seriously man, what the fuck? Just because I happened to agree with Frank I'm brownnosing and my opinion is invalid? I didn't say "Frank is totally right and you should all line up and slob on his knob", I said "Frank has a point." And your examples to why RPS is a bad idea are pretty much personal opinion and bad examples. That's not a good look man.

*indicates clarification of idea

[Hicks]

Kaelik, I believe JE is arguing about "what is", and you are going on about "what should be".

I think that an other main difference is that I expect characters to have the same amount of lethality at higher levels, as they did at lower levels.

Killing a Fire Giant, or two, every round should be possible at 11th level play.

Summary. A Level 11 character should kill one or two CR 10 enemies per round.

No qualifications about "From range" or "If they shit up the right way." or "Except people fighting the way that is advantageous to the Fire Giants."

Your average level 11 Fighter should kill one or two CR 10 enemies a round.

Assumptions I make that are based on further statements made later:

1) A fire Giant should not be able to one round an average level 11 Fighter.
2) Everything that applies to level 11 Fighters here also applies to level 10 Fighters.

My statements:

I agree that Fire Giants shouldn't last that long against equal powered people, I do not agree that they should not be able to kill you in the same time it takes you to kill them.

But Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, and Samurai can and do drop one or two Fire giants a round; a TWF full attack can shutdown and kill 3, and a TWF Whirlwind can kill every fire giant you can reach. So can Spellcasters, with three simple words: Save or Die; they can also achieve a mission kill with battlefield control. This is the reality of the game: any class can kill an equaled CR enemy with, generally, 2 attacks.

Only named characters should last an appreciable amount of time in a fight.

Having mooks last more than two rounds against equal level PCs means that they mooks have some sort of special defense (puzzle monster)

This is fairly self explanatory and doesn't mean anything without a further definition of "Mook" that is upcoming.

When I say mook, I mean, everything that wasn't supposed to talk to a PC, or a BBEG. Fire Giants in a lvl 11 game? Mooks. Rhemorazzes at lvl 7 games? Mooks. CR 15 Red Dragons in a lvl 15-16 game? Also, mooks.

The First part is pretty expansive, so I won't deal with how you could fight something that doesn't talk, isn't a BBEG, but is a big deal.

However CR 15 Dragons are mooks to a level 15 party. And are specifically used in similar example to earlier statements about Fire Giants.

Assumptions derived from this:

A level 15 Character should kill a level 15 Dragon in one or two rounds.

My comment:

Again, fine, but since they are explicitly defined as equal power, they should kill you in the same time.

Yes and no. Unprepared and in an ambush, sure, a CR 15 Dragon can gank a level 15 Character, but while in combat that Character has a suite of advantages and a laundry list of resistances and immunities, and will position themselves advantageously to completely and nigh effortlessly murder the Dragon, to say nothing of foreknowledge of the encounter or any specialized tactics and contingencies the Character has developed or deployed.

The only thing that the PCs should ever care about, are named encounters.

If a "mook" who is definitionally my equal, could kill me in one round because I could kill them in one round, that would make them something I care about.

From this, I derive that he does not expect the CR 15 Dragon to be able to kill him in a single round, (or two) even though he can kill it in two rounds.

IE, this is part of were I derive his CR inequity.

I feel that trash mobs are trash, and don't matter, so if the PCs can kill them in 2 rounds; then so be it.

Now he is equating the earlier kill time of "mooks" to "trash mobs" which comes with lots of additional assumptions, including that they come more than one at a time, usually in numbers equal to or greater than the group.

Now the party of Four is facing multiple CR = Level monsters, and they still don't care about the fight, and are expected to win with not only no causalities, but little resource expenditure.

Now, sub out "CR 15 Dragons" with "Level 15 Fighters" and "party" with "Level 15 Fighters" because these are in fact defined as equal under the CR system.

Now you have:

Four level 15 Fighters should be killed in two rounds by four level 15 Fighters who "don't really care about the fight" and "just win and move on" which I'm going to assume means not taking casualties.

In conclusion:

A == ~A

Giant Frog.

1 level 15 fighter* can kill 4 level 15 fighters as a full-round action (TWF, Combat School, fullround action Whirlwind with a Vorpal weapon). 1 level 15 wizard can kill 4 level 15 wizards on his turn with a move action left over (celerity, x2 telekinesis on 30 shrink item, magic weapon +1 spell storing colossal acid flasks gained through the wish economy, each storing some crazy spell like shivering touch or suggestion: (Kill your friends before they turn on you)).

*There is the problem of getting past 4 Foil Actions, but it can be minimized to negation by stacking miss chances (entropic shield, displacement, mirror image, greater mirror image, blink, greater blink, and blur (in total, 0.125% of successfully landing)) and/or increasing touch AC.

---

In conclusion, JE in his posts is describing what actually happens when the game is played intelligently and how one should act with that reality, while you are trying to impose your thoughts on reality to revise it to be what you believe that reality should be.

As far as I can tell, neither of you are wrong; he is absolutely right in that anyone can one-shot any equal CR anything else, and you are absolutely right in that the CR system says it should be different from that reality and class and character design should follow the CR guidelines as the rules they were intended to be. However, I will point out that your tirade against JE was wrong, as you and he are talking about two totally different things. Just as if he had said, "red apples are red", and you argued "you should only grow green apples"; yes, you both are talking about apples, but none of your points actually support, disprove, are relevant, or intersect at all with his points.

[Kaelik]

Hicks, If he is talking about "what is" then why does he say things implying that a CR 15 Dragon should not be able to kill him in one or two rounds, or that for example, four level 15 Fighters should not be a threat to him.

He has made clear that he should win without even bothering to think about it against opponents of his CR with a single character, but by definition, and exact clone of his character is a valid CR of his level encounter.

Which means that he would have a 50% chance of dieing every time he fights a mook.

And yet, clearly what he says is that his level 15 fighter should (and he uses the word should) not be under any threat from a level 15 Fighter that is his own clone.

That's both him talking about what should be, and not true of reality.

2) "Yes and no. Unprepared and in an ambush, sure, a CR 15 Dragon can gank a level 15 Character, but while in combat that Character has a suite of advantages and a laundry list of resistances and immunities, and will position themselves advantageously to completely and nigh effortlessly murder the Dragon, to say nothing of foreknowledge of the encounter or any specialized tactics and contingencies the Character has developed or deployed."

KJLSLJSOIBUIYBI?

What the hell does that gibberish mean? In combat, a CR 15 Dragon also has a suite of advantages and a laundry list of resistances and immunities and will position itself advantageously to completely and nigh effortlessly murder the player.

THATS WHAT BEING A CR 15 Monster means.

It means you go 50/50 against enemies of your CR. If you fail to go 50/50, then you by definition are not a CR 15 monster.

And when those two lists of immunities and advantages and positions collide, what you get is an effort-full and very much in contest combat in which both sides have a 50% chance of victory.

That's how CR works.

Why is your PC who is definitionally CR 15 better than the CR 15 Dragon? That's exactly the point this thread was supposed to be about calling fucking retarded.

If you are level 15, it means you are CR 15, it means you cannot be more powerful than CR 15s, because that means CR is literally meaningless.

CR 15 Dragons in combat are just as good as CR 15 class leveled characters, or they are not CR 15.

So no, your PC does not get to completely and nigh effortlessly defeat a mirror image of himself, because that's not how it works.

[ubernoob]

//