On page 3 of THIS, I advocated the founding of a for profit corporation whose purpose is to design and publish quality games. As I see it, the benefits provided to game design by having a corporate structure are as follows:
Chain of Command: Design decisions would be made by project managers, who would delegate and approve subsystem design from in-house talent and contractual freelancers to streamline the design process until the project becomes a product, instead of having a project devolve into deadlock.
Funding: A corporate face would provide easier access to and legitimacy to investors, as well as other of financing such as grants and loans.
Day Job: Designers who are using their time designing games for the corporation would be financially compensated contractually, with actual money, as they are working for the corporation in lieu of being a wage-slave to Taco Temple.
Protection: Should the corporation fail to generate profit, its associates would be protected from the financial fallout and not be liable to debt accrued.
DragonChild has mentioned the problem of initial capital. In addition to that there are also other things that must be accomplished to make a game design corporation a reality:
[b]TO DO LIST[/b]
[/td][/tr]
Write corporate charter
Register corporate charter
Raise initial Capital by obtaining investors, loans, and grants
Design, advertise, and distribute an actual game while paying employees and contractors
???
Profit!
"Besides, my strong, cult like faith in the colon of the cards allows me to pull whatever I need out of my posterior!"
-Kid Radd
shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.
Lokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed
Nobody is going to want to give money to this - why would they? How many people who intend to write for this have even come close to proving they can write well balanced material that needs no editing on a fixed schedule? How many people have proved they can work in a team?
Editing isn't that easy either, and I speak from experience having done "professional" game design editing before. It's actually a LOT of work, and there are a fuckton of issues when an editor wants something to be X, and the author wants it to be Y.
Then you get into stuff like formatting and design. The hardest part of a new system isn't the classes and the skill descriptions. It's the framework, and that's a one person job. It's getting something that you can hang the entire system on, guidelines, etc. Once you have that, honestly writing material is EASY. It's writing that that's the problem - that's Frank's hidden skill that nobody seems to recognize, getting a good framework going. Having tried to write RPG systems of my own, I've found it a huge problem.
And let's be honest here. Someone is going to have to call the shots. Who actually has the time, experience, trust, etc, to do that? If the game design buck doesn't stop with SOMEBODY with a greater vision, then your game will be terrible, guaranteed.
Well...I think the first response was unduly harsh, but I do agree with one thing. You will NOT have an easy time arranging any of that. But hey, if you do succeed in managing something out from all of this, then applauds to you. And it also means I can brag about being one of the few people who didn't dismiss it as something impossible. Hehehe.
"Lurker and fan of random stuff." - Icy's occupation
sabs wrote:And Yes, being Finnish makes you Evil.
virgil wrote:And has been successfully proven with Pathfinder, you can just say you improved the system from 3E without doing so and many will believe you to the bitter end.
But seriously, all businesses start somewhere and somehow. So you don't like the idea of forming a corporate entity, I get it. I still think it is possible, though I freely admit that there are are others more capable and knowledgeable than I about business and business law; I never said I should run it, but that it should exist because it would benefit those who design RPGs and other games in their free time.
That said, I intended to have this thread used to find solutions for the TO DO LIST in the original post, drawing from the insights and talents of the local Denizens. My proposal is not "Why Not" but "How Shall", what are the obstacles needed to be overcome to make this a reality, and what do you Denizens think the solutions to those obstacles are.
"Besides, my strong, cult like faith in the colon of the cards allows me to pull whatever I need out of my posterior!"
-Kid Radd
shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.
Lokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed
as far as the ability of people here being untested, all you have to do is ask "can we write something better than Black Tokyo, or even half the core material of D&D 3.5?" We already know the answer is yes. This means that there is no reason we couldn't produce what Hicks proposes.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
If you want it to happen, be more concrete. You're basically not going to find partners here, you're going to find talent. Some folks might be willing to work for peanuts or for the fun of it, but you need an actual proposal.
Look at how alt.War kicked off. It wasn't "let's write high quality Shadowrun material" it was "lets rewrite this particular book to be less ass." Similarly, don't propose "founding a for profit corporation whose purpose is to design and publish quality games"; suggest a specific project.
The same applies to investors, incidentally. No one will invest in "quality games", they want to know what you're actually going to do.
Good luck forming your corporation. After you pull some venture capital out of your ass and put out a call for submissions I'l happily l send you a resume and writing sample. Of course, I won't expect that you'll stay out of bankruptcy long enough to actually pay any of your freelancers, but I'll be happily surprised if you can buck the trend and prove me wrong.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Prak_Anima wrote:as far as the ability of people here being untested, all you have to do is ask "can we write something better than Black Tokyo, or even half the core material of D&D 3.5?" We already know the answer is yes. This means that there is no reason we couldn't produce what Hicks proposes.
That reminds me I have to put up the review for his one of his free products up here. It has been a while.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Prak_Anima wrote:as far as the ability of people here being untested, all you have to do is ask "can we write something better than Black Tokyo, or even half the core material of D&D 3.5?" We already know the answer is yes. This means that there is no reason we couldn't produce what Hicks proposes.
Yeah no. I haven't seen anyone on here be able to write in a way that is actually "not make the editor want to kill himself" quality beyond frank. No offense to everyone else. But working in a team environment, with a deadline, and having to follow a standard - having to specifically SUPPRESS your writing voice - is fucking tough.
I know nothing of corporations and my free time is limited; however, I do have some amateur ability to draw, write and edit which I would be happy to provide as I am able.
I keep starting game design projects and never following through, often because I take on something more significant than my available free time allows, and my interest or the interest of others whom I am attempting to entertain wanes. If I make an agreement to create something of a smaller scope, then I have confidence in my ability to follow through.
In short, I find your proposal intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter, Hicks.
Last edited by erik on Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Prak_Anima wrote:as far as the ability of people here being untested, all you have to do is ask "can we write something better than Black Tokyo, or even half the core material of D&D 3.5?" We already know the answer is yes. This means that there is no reason we couldn't produce what Hicks proposes.
Yeah no. I haven't seen anyone on here be able to write in a way that is actually "not make the editor want to kill himself" quality beyond frank. No offense to everyone else. But working in a team environment, with a deadline, and having to follow a standard - having to specifically SUPPRESS your writing voice - is fucking tough.
If most of the stuff here is "make the editor want to kill himself," then most editors must want to kill themselves most of the time. Which, honestly, I'm sure is the case, but then I think that's kind of an occupational hazard of being an editor. I think if people put their mind to it, and it were done right (ie, Hey you fucks, this is your job now) it might be able to work.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
I am a writer, but I doubt the kind of stuff I write would help much in all this despite me not being just an amateur. Though I'd be more than happy to play-test the stuff if you guys get some material done.
"Lurker and fan of random stuff." - Icy's occupation
sabs wrote:And Yes, being Finnish makes you Evil.
virgil wrote:And has been successfully proven with Pathfinder, you can just say you improved the system from 3E without doing so and many will believe you to the bitter end.
Starting an actual corporation costs about 1000-1500 bucks to have a lawyer do it properly. You need to fill several positions, hand out initial stock, and a bunch of other stuff. It'll take an afternoon of time and effort, and the lawyer will have some time to do some stuff. And that's before you can really go looking for venture capital, which is a nightmare on it's own.
Then come the taxes. See, even if you don't do a dime of business, depending on where and how you incorporate, you owe taxes just for existing. Plus, you have double-taxation through an actual corporation, and you have to either pay a lawyer or do a large amount of paperwork to keep everything straight.
There's a reason why In Media Res is an LLC (namely, pass-through taxation with some of the liability protection of a corporation). Hell, SquareSoft was an LLC until they merged and became Square-Enix (and they *still* might be an LLC, I'm not sure).
So even before we get to the fact that you don't have a business plan, a specific product, or people willing to work on said specific product, we have the herculean hurdle that you apparently don't know the first goddamn thing about business.
When you have a realistic business proposal spelled out, down to how the business will run day-to-day, then you'll show that you're serious about this. Until then, at best you're doing what the dot-com boom companies did (come up with a vague idea, try to get investment money, and *then* figure out what the fuck you're trying to do), and at worst you're that guy who's sure he has a million dollar idea, but needs someone to design, develop, test, market, and sell it. Oh, and someone to actually make the company run. You're just the idea guy.
Edit: For example, I have as a theoretical investor two questions. 1: How much would the average gaming product generate in revenue? 2: How much is the daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly cost of doing business?
If the answer to question one is not significantly larger than the answer to question two, you have a failed business before it's even left the concept stage, because as an investor, I want my money back. And I want interest. And I want it on a timeframe that you agree to ahead of time. If you can't answer either question one or two, you've just pissed me off for wasting my time, and I let my friends with money to invest not to even take your phone calls.
Edit 2: You know, I'm thinking, and there's a thousand books on starting your own corporation out there. When I started my business I bought a couple and started reading up on what I was getting into. That you haven't even done that irritates me, and I have no intention of putting money, time, or any type of good faith in the venture.
Last edited by TheFlatline on Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
I get the idea behind what you're suggesting hick. I approve of it. Thing is realistically... you'd have to get someone who actually knows how to run a buisness, and thinks this is a strong enough investment.
I have a question though.
Dreamscarred Press.
Didn't they do this, already?
Start off on a forum and become a buisness.
Also here's the deal. If Frank and K say no then why the fuck bother. I mean they need lead design jobs and cronies, but I've never once heard them suggest it. Further, I'm sure they're smart enough to think it. I'm pretty sure if they wanted to lead a project with us doing some of the work that might work but...
How many of you would actually want to invest in something created here at the den? Is anyone qualified here to run a buisness?
Its a huge amount of stuff.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
If I collected the most prolific posters from TDG I'd be worried about a fist fight breaking out. The people here have no particular consensus about what a game should look like and no interest in doing what they're told.
I think DC and TF were being generous. This is the worst idea since Elennsar's abortions of statistics.
Perhaps not a corporation, LLC or anything monetary based. I just like the notion of a project that had some structure, assignments, roles and what not for interested parties. If people step up and perform it could be great.
If it looks like it is actually going to come together and someone wanted to try profiting from it by producing/publishing/selling it, then that could be a separate discussion. It could be created under a creative commons license, and we could grant license to publish pretty, pretty hard copies or superior pdf versions for sale.
I confess no small amount of ignorance on how this would be executed with respect to licenses and publishing and what not, but at this moment that is not a grand concern to myself.
I think that products written by fans with no thought of monetary reward to be generally better in quality than when written with a paycheck riding on it.
Of course there are great 3rd party publishers that are doing business, but they have their struggles too.
There ain't no rest for the wicked. befriend (v.): to use mecha-class beam weaponry to inflict grievous bodily harm on a target in the process of proving the validity of your belief system.
While I think that this IS insane I suggest the funding model used by e20.
Where by you con a bunch of rubes into paying for your vapor ware product in advance of you even beginning to write it, and then continue to con rubes into paying you for it long after you have missed the actual deadline for actually publishing the actual proposed product even though you long since met your official funding targets on time.
I mean, OK, I don't think this idea is going to actually work or even be an especially good thing if it does. But funding? As far as I can tell after observing that e20 business, that just happens for no perceivable reason at all.
Phonelobster's Self Proclaimed Greatest Hits Collection : (no really, they are awesome)
I approve of the corporation structure for getting things done. I did not realize you actually intendEd to pay people and charge for the product. I think if you do that it's going to be next to impossible to convince anyone to invest and those who do invest will want a fairly hefty say based on the idea that they invested not because they were put in charge. (advocates merit based hierarchy not pay for position)
Honestly, I suggest dropping the business aspect of it and instead work on building up a community that can actually work within the structure that you're proposing. Strictly enforced roles, regulations, and processes all devoted towards the concept of creating quality game content.
Anyone who doesn't play ball gets kicked, banned, and shunned.
Don't let money get involved unless you know you have enough talent and product on board to actually make it a viable venture. Otherwise the overhead alone breaks the entire idea.
If you get this started, then I'd love to help out however I can.
Wrathzog wrote:Honestly, I suggest dropping the business aspect of it and instead work on building up a community that can actually work within the structure that you're proposing. Strictly enforced roles, regulations, and processes all devoted towards the concept of creating quality game content.
Anyone who doesn't play ball gets kicked, banned, and shunned.
Don't let money get involved unless you know you have enough talent and product on board to actually make it a viable venture. Otherwise the overhead alone breaks the entire idea.
If you get this started, then I'd love to help out however I can.
I would say now that this is what I SHOULD have said (though how harsh the requirements are for getting people kicked is what I might want to debate about, because I am something of a moron when it comes to being ruthless), instead of the rather small amount of crap I dropped from my throat that could maybe be called posts on this thread. Also...why haven't I seen anyone just trolling the creator of this thread yet? It seems quite common to just jump up and mock ideas and ambitions like this.
Last edited by icyshadowlord on Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Lurker and fan of random stuff." - Icy's occupation
sabs wrote:And Yes, being Finnish makes you Evil.
virgil wrote:And has been successfully proven with Pathfinder, you can just say you improved the system from 3E without doing so and many will believe you to the bitter end.
Wrathzog wrote:Honestly, I suggest dropping the business aspect of it and instead work on building up a community that can actually work within the structure that you're proposing. Strictly enforced roles, regulations, and processes all devoted towards the concept of creating quality game content.
Anyone who doesn't play ball gets kicked, banned, and shunned.
Don't let money get involved unless you know you have enough talent and product on board to actually make it a viable venture. Otherwise the overhead alone breaks the entire idea.
If you get this started, then I'd love to help out however I can.
This doesn't work without money. The whole kicked, banned and shunned thing works when people have a strong incentive (eating) but not with voluntary stuff.
