[Tome] Wish Factories

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:47 pm

My stance is that the vast majority of wishes in non-modern depictions are either Benevolent or Literal at worst, not that it doesn't ever happen. In the modern era, likely because of the Paw story, such wishes have become drastically more prevalent in stories.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:48 pm

hyzmarca wrote: Arabian genies don't tend to twist their wishes, but they'll just kill you outright or make you suffer fates worse than death if you annoy them.

True, although there's that one 1001 Nights story where a fisherman catches a wish-granting fish and his wife wishes his dong was bigger (TOO BIG!!) and then smaller (too small...) and then back to normal.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:00 pm

"What are you complaining about? I gave you exactly what you said you wanted! I even gave you what you meant, not just the literal words!"

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:04 pm

Kaelik, I will concede that I misunderstood the terminology, so from now on I'll refer to wish factories instead of chain binding.

It turns out that advocating zombies for spellstitching was terribad advice, as they have a null intelligence score and auto-fail any knowledge check to even know what an Efreet is to call it, much less negotiate with it.

That terrible bit of advice has been replaced with intelligent undead minion wizards that you spell stitch more powerful spells to so they can successfully call and negotiate wishes with 1 hit die (even though they are CR 2). Now abuse leadership and with a leadership score of 11, which you get for just be 11th level with a [Leadership] feat and no positive or negative modifiers to your leadership score, you can make an additional 15 6 wish attempts per day, which grows with cohort leadership stacking, being higher level, or investing anything at all into raising your leadership score; from a Charisma score of 10 you can increase it by +9 (4 item, 5 inherent) that provides a leadership score of 15 and 85 58 wish attempts per day.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:17 pm

That's great Hicks. Now, can you explain to me why I would want to play a Wizard with Leadership, a relatively high Charisma, who sits in fucking house using Planar Binding all day, with all his Spell Stiched followers?

That doesn't sound like fun to me, so I don't do it. Instead I play a Wizard who doesn't have Leadership, and focuses on being awesome at spellcasting, and just happens to wish up 8-12 minor items when he reaches that point, and give everyone in the party +5 inherent to everything. Then goes back to adventuring, because that's more fun.

I could make lots of money in skyrim by buying leather and pelts, crafting it into leather bracers, and selling it, but that's not fun, so I don't do that.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:21 pm

Previn wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Okay, yes, those are tropes, but they're modern tropes. You referenced mythological sources.
You do realize that they list literary and mythology examples in there?

I really don't think the Bible, Greek mythos, Aesop's Fables, Native American mythology, let alone Arabian examples of actual Genies/Efreet doing it are exactly modern things....

But those are almost all examples of carelessness (e.g. Midas), not malicious compliance. Zeus is kind of an exception, but that's more everyone else trying (and failing) to outsmart him. Bound djinni in Arabian Nights are basically all faithful servants (not sure it's 100%, but I can't recall any stories where it wasn't).

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:26 pm

Option 2: Have another player in the party take levels in Genie, or get one as a cohort with one of the leadership feats, or a Pokemaster. After a month's downtime, the entire party has everything they need (+5 to their important stats, minor item wish lists to fill their slots, etc) for adventuring.

I ran a game where that happened. The party took a couple months off and each got +5 to all stats and a sack of minor items they would most likely need. The genie PC went on to create a breathtaking magical city on a forsaken desert in a backwater Prime world, hiring the best and the brightest Adepts and other magic-researching NPCs (none with PC casting capability) to live there to do all the research they want with all the funding & amenities they could possibly need (got to bring their families too); just to see what they produced.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:53 pm

That sound's like an amazing game.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:53 pm

Where is the Charisma investment? The guide assumes a minimum Charisma of 10.

I used like 3 feats, two of which that you could have on your cohort. You are 11th level and have at least 4 if not more feat slots, and you can't spare your 6th level feat for [Leadership]?

The point of a wish factory is to put the bulk of your wishing on your followers so you can go and adventure in Bytopia or whatever while they sit at home and wish for bling and shinies every day while you are off saving the world. Remember, with a leadership score of 15, which you can get by having a 10 Charisma and wishable gear, you get 85 58 wishes every day of anything (within the limits of the spell) you care about, that's nearly 600 over 400 a week, and the number increases every time you level up.

I'd play logistics and dragons to leverage the factory as a power center to rule the world and improve the quality of life of every person my power held sway over, because my fantasy is helping people.

I would also use it as a scroll factory of for buffs like hero's feast and no save spells like acid fog and force cage and for scrolls of heal, just off the top of my head. Hell, I could wish for scrolls of move earth and play Populus and Dragons to raise mountains in the middle of wherever I cared to. Better yet I could task minions to do it for me as I sip iced tea or adventure or whatever else I want to do.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:19 pm

Why not Charm the genies? That immediately gets rid of these useless arguments about literal wishes, twisted wishes, etc.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:47 pm

Surgo wrote:Why not Charm the genies? That immediately gets rid of these useless arguments about literal wishes, twisted wishes, etc.

The problem is that the genies aren't really responsible for how the wish plays out. The spell does all the actual work. Literal and twisted wishes are a problem even for wizards burning the XP to cast the spell themselves.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:03 pm

Surgo wrote:Why not Charm the genies? That immediately gets rid of these useless arguments about literal wishes, twisted wishes, etc.

Would charming a creature inside a Magic Circle Against XYZ work?

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:34 pm

hyzmarca wrote:
Surgo wrote:Why not Charm the genies? That immediately gets rid of these useless arguments about literal wishes, twisted wishes, etc.
The problem is that the genies aren't really responsible for how the wish plays out. The spell does all the actual work. Literal and twisted wishes are a problem even for wizards burning the XP to cast the spell themselves.

Maybe you can get around this by wishing in a language with a deterministic outcome. That's getting pretty obscure but I think it demonstrates the silly assumptions of the spell text.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:41 pm

Ok, this has gotten out of hand. Wish factory wishes are not and furthermore cannot be twisted because twistable wishes are not even allowed as an effect an Efreet can grant. The menu in the guide is the same from the Book of Fiends where both wish and calling magic in general were overhauled, and represents the entierty of outputs a wish from a bound Efreet can grant.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:57 am

So level 11 characters are in the Wish economy. So what? Well, this means that anything that can only be created by characters of level 11 or higher will only be available for Wish economy goods, even if it is creatable by Wish! Why? Because the only people who can create them don't need to trade them away for mundane wealth. A level 11 wizard is not going to Wish up a scroll of Planar binding and then sell it for gold, he could have just wished for the gold! So in effect, any item with a caster level of 11 or greater is only generally going to be traded away for Wish economy currency, even if it is not over the magic 15,000gp limit.

Now, it is important to note that this does not make them true wish economy items. After all, noone is going to trade away a Vorpal sword for any number of scroll's of Heal. However, if you want a scroll of Heal you are going to have to find something that would interest a level 11 spellcaster, which is not likely to include a pile of gold coins. So the upshot is that these items are almost never made simply to sell, but are either wished up as they are needed by those powerful enough to do so, or made to order for someone who has come across a piece of Wish economy gear but hasn't actually broken into the Wish economy proper.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:07 am

Anyone with a renewable fat stack of high level scrolls can exchange them for favors and fealty from anyone who values high level scrolls.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:56 am

Hicks wrote:Ok, this has gotten out of hand. Wish factory wishes are not and furthermore cannot be twisted because twistable wishes are not even allowed as an effect an Efreet can grant. The menu in the guide is the same from the Book of Fiends where both wish and calling magic in general were overhauled, and represents the entierty of outputs a wish from a bound Efreet can grant.

The Efreet grants the wish. It is the one casting it. It can twist it however it likes, even if he effects would normally be ok. Cast in point; you could demand the Efreet uses a wish to give you a 15,000 gp item. The Efreet makes the wish with an added claus that it be cursed.

It's not the wish doing the twisting it's the Efreet.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:07 am

LOL no. The whole point of makimg the Efreet friendly or helpful is that the Efreet becomes friendly or helpful, or intimidating him so hardcore that it would not dare fuck with you.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:27 am

Hicks wrote:LOL no. The whole point of makimg the Efreet friendly or helpful is that the Efreet becomes friendly or helpful, or intimidating him so hardcore that it would not dare fuck with you.

Friendly and helpful are wonderfully nebulous terms. Especially when dealing with those of evil alignment. Helpful and friendly and what they mena or get you if frankly magic tea party.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:11 am

Previn wrote:
Hicks wrote:LOL no. The whole point of makimg the Efreet friendly or helpful is that the Efreet becomes friendly or helpful, or intimidating him so hardcore that it would not dare fuck with you.
Friendly and helpful are wonderfully nebulous terms. Especially when dealing with those of evil alignment. Helpful and friendly and what they mena or get you if frankly magic tea party.

So that last sentence is totally unintelligible. The first two seem to imply that "helpful" can mean "no, actually, totally harmful to every single one of your actual objectives," because apparently being Evil means that you willfully piss off the extremely powerful people who've been doing you favors and/or letting you live. That's Gygaxian levels of DM dickery.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:11 am

Actually they're fairly well defined terms.

Friendly: Wishes you well; Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate
Helpful: Will take risks to help you; Protect, back up, heal, aid

See, not nebulous at all really. Unless the connotations of nebulous have been changed to mean clear and well defined.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:12 am

Previn wrote:Friendly and helpful are wonderfully nebulous terms. Especially when dealing with those of evil alignment. Helpful and friendly and what they mena or get you if frankly magic tea party.

No; that's bullshit. Friendly means that it actually wants to help you, at least somewhat. The only way a friendly/helpful Efreet being evil would fuck you over would be if it actually thought you would want something that you really didn't.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:13 am

darkmaster wrote:Actually they're fairly well defined terms.

Friendly: Wishes you well; Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate
Helpful: Will take risks to help you; Protect, back up, heal, aid

See, not nebulous at all really. Unless the connotations of nebulous have been changed to mean clear and well defined.

What if nebulous is, itself, a nebulous term? The whole English language is starting to break down at that point.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:52 am

Hey, I have a quick question: after you make an Efreet friendly/helpful, and as a service request his use-name (Ernie), and have him dissipear in a cloud of smoke once that service was finished, and on the next day call him by name for your planer binding, is Ernie the Efreet still friendly/helpful?

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:53 am

Chamomile wrote:What if nebulous is, itself, a nebulous term?

Hrrm