[Tome] Wish Factories

[Hicks]

Dude, a magic sword is a specific minor magic item that grants a +1/3 hit die enchantment bonus to attack and damage rolls with that weapon. A magic flaming sword is a specific lesser magic item that in addition to adding a level apropriate bonus to attack and damage rolls forces a Reflex save based on the wielder's charisma score on a successful hit that sets the struck creature on fire.

How would a friendly/helpful/cowed/bribed genie, who grants wishes based on specific instructions, grant you a non-specified magical item? A magic sword and a flaming sword are as specifically different as a magic sword and a Quall's feather token, and it would be just as ludicrous to recieve a feather token as a cursed sword if what you said was "magic sword".

I will however grant that there is ambiguity in the statement "magic sword", although it lies with the word "sword" and not with the word "magic"; falchion, great sword, short sword, longsword, scimitar, rapier, elven thinblade...

[Prak]

On a less stupid subject, this, combined with the D&D Internet Shopping thread make me want to play a character who carries literally nothing with him, and just has an ability, or a single magic item he wears, that allows him to open small gates to his wish factory warehouse to pull out whatever he needs at a given moment.

[Hicks]

Ring gate, that's what you want.

[Prak]

pretty much. maybe put whatever magic allows you to grab exactly what you need from a handy haversack on your warehouse. the reason I didn't just way ring gate is because, stylistically, I think it's cooler if you just gesture and a rift opens up. could be a different style of ring gate, though

[Kaelik]

Seriously Hicks.

Your argument is that flaming sword is not a magic sword? That's your official argument for this?

EDIT: DSM, unsurprisingly, you are being retarded.

If someone from some african tribe points at themself, they are really pointing at something behind them, because they are assumed invisible in their language. It is absolutely possible for magic creatures made of magic, like say, Slaadi or Inevitables to think differently from normal humans in a way that creates misunderstandings. So yes, really, an always lawful evil creature that grants wishes and has a tradition of granting wishes in a literal fashion might not pick up on the subtle social clues that you and your friend pick up on amongst each other.

That doesn't make them stupid, that makes them different.

[RadiantPhoenix]

pretty much. maybe put whatever magic allows you to grab exactly what you need from a handy haversack on your warehouse. the reason I didn't just way ring gate is because, stylistically, I think it's cooler if you just gesture and a rift opens up. could be a different style of ring gate, though

You mean like this guy?

Seriously Hicks.

Your argument is that flaming sword is not a magic sword? That's your official argument for this?

No, the argument is that an Efreet knows that when you say you want a 'magic sword', you mean a magic sword that is beneficial to you.

[Kaelik]

No, the argument is that an Efreet knows that when you say you want a 'magic sword', you mean a magic sword that is beneficial to you.

No, that's not. He is expressly stating that the genie won't give you a magic flaming sword when you wish for "a magic sword."

Now, he could argue that the genie knows that magic flaming sword won't benefit you, but fuck you how is it supposed to know that?

I've also pointed out several ways in which a cursed sword could be beneficial to you, and that unlike the average human, and always lawful evil creature is likely to have a diffifernt conception of the problem than an inevitable.

I've also stated many times that PCs should always get what they actually wanted when they put even a modicum of effort into the wish, but they should get that because the PCs are aware of literal genies, not because genies are up on human idioms.

[darkmaster]

No, he said if asked for a magic sword, then the Efreet would would give you a +X sword, because that's exactly what you asked for. If you ask for a Flaming sword, the Efreet will give you a Flaming sword because that's exactly what you asked for.

Except an item that bestows a curse on you is not beneficial to anyone.

[Hicks]

I would pay my tome fighter's weight in souls to have a set of magic adamantine carapace with cursed armor spikes, cursed adamantine shield, and cursed adamantine longsword.

I thought cursed weapons, and all moderate weapon abilities, weren't wishable anyway; or was that a house rule?

Now, he could argue that the genie knows that magic flaming sword won't benefit you, but fuck you how is it supposed to know that?

And I respond with:

The SRD[/url]]Efreeti

---

Special Qualities: Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, plane shift, telepathy 100 ft., vulnerability to cold

... So, yeah... an Efreet knows exactly what you intend to happen when you communicate with it because it can literally read your mind.

[Miryafa]

The telepathy ability you linked to doesn't allow for mind reading.

Also, I was just thinking that an 11-th level wizard could alternatively buy two candles of invocation, gate in a 22HD creature ("A"), give it the other candle and have it gate in a great wyrm red/gold dragon (your choice) that can cast gate ("B"), tell A to have B gate in an 80 HD prismatic dragon that can cast gate ("C"), and so on until you have a 22*2^10=22528HD dragon and in the last round of control over A, send an order down the chain to cast an epic spell that will win the campiagn for you.

And in the meantime, some of the lesser epic dragons can wish you more candles of invocation.

[RadiantPhoenix]

... So, yeah... an Efreet knows exactly what you intend to happen when you communicate with it because it can literally read your mind.

Okay, I have to point this out: Telepathy in 3e D&D means that other people can read your mind if you want them to, not that you can read other people's minds.

[Hicks]

So a Demon (Telepathy) talks with an Angel (Tongues) and Human is standing within earshot of the conversation; while both the Demon and Angel are gesticulating to add emphasis to their points, to the Human the Demon is silent while he hears the Angel's half of the conversation in the Human's native language?

But a Demon conversing with another Demon is compleatly silent to the same human evesdropper?

[fectin]

Ring gate, that's what you want.

The rings must be on the same plane of existence and within 100 miles of each other to function. Whatever is put through one ring comes out the other, and up to 100 pounds of material can be transferred each day.

Bit limited.

[DSMatticus]

If someone from some african tribe points at themself, they are really pointing at something behind them, because they are assumed invisible in their language. It is absolutely possible for magic creatures made of magic, like say, Slaadi or Inevitables to think differently from normal humans in a way that creates misunderstandings.

Except the example you gave is not about a misunderstanding of cultural language use. It was about how a genie might reasonably assume that when you wish for a magic sword you actually want a magic cursed sword. And that assumption is not reasonable. It is actually super-fucking retarded, because there are significantly and obviously less cases in which someone wants a magic cursed sword than a magic uncursed sword. It's not, "X means Y in my culture," it's "you didn't specify, so I thought you'd rather have Y, which is in all ways less useful than X."

granting wishes in a literal fashion

There is no spoken language in existence in which ambiguity does not exist. For every detail a sentence specifies, there are still infinitely many it does not specify. Pretty much anyone who is proficient with any language at all cannot be afflicted with "stupidly literal" or else it would be impossible to communicate with them.

No one is stupidly literal. They are deliberately literal, or there is a misunderstanding. But the kind of misunderstanding you have to have to think someone wants a magic weapon that is actually a cursed butterknife is not one you can "have" due to a cultural misunderstanding unless you're dealing with a masochistic wish-granting toast.

[Avoraciopoctules]

"So... just a magic sword? Isn't that kinda boring? I could probably conjure up something more specific if you want. Or do you want me to surprise you?"
A. "Just a magic sword. Somewhat better than a regular one in most respects."
- (Genie produces a Magic steel longsword)
B. "Let me qualify that a little."
- (PC specifies desire in more detail)
C. "Sure, surprise me"
- (Roll on table G1)
D. "What do you suggest?"
- (Genie asks PC a couple questions about abilities and opposition, then Mister Cavern comes up with a piece of treasure that should be useful)
E. "Actually, I'd like to wish for something else."

Table G1

Roll	Sword
1	Magic silver longsword with Mirror Image as a spell-like ability
2	Thunder iron greatsword
3	Defending silver rapier
4	Flame adamantine scimitar
5	Dispelling iron longsword
6	Caustic adamantine thinblade

[Chamomile]

D&D: ChoiceScript Edition.

[Avoraciopoctules]

granting wishes in a literal fashion

There is no spoken language in existence in which ambiguity does not exist. For every detail a sentence specifies, there are still infinitely many it does not specify. Pretty much anyone who is proficient with any language at all cannot be afflicted with "stupidly literal" or else it would be impossible to communicate with them.

No one is stupidly literal. They are deliberately literal, or there is a misunderstanding. But the kind of misunderstanding you have to have to think someone wants a magic weapon that is actually a cursed butterknife is not one you can "have" due to a cultural misunderstanding unless you're dealing with a masochistic wish-granting toast.

It would be hilarious if it turned out that Kaelik played all of his genies like Amelia Bedelia. I think next time I have the PCs find a genie in a bottle, it will turn out that the reason it was stuck in there was that it had been exiled from Genie-ville for being literal-minded to the point of incompetence.

[Kaelik]

No, he said if asked for a magic sword, then the Efreet would would give you a +X sword, because that's exactly what you asked for. If you ask for a Flaming sword, the Efreet will give you a Flaming sword because that's exactly what you asked for.

If you wish for a magic sword, and the genie gives you a flaming sword, then he also gave you exactly what you asked for. Given a choice between lots of things that are all exactly what you asked for, how does he make the choice? He can't read your mind. He can't just magically know what you want. He can't do nothing. And there are multiple equally correct ways of giving you exactly what you asked for.

You are getting super hung up on this pretension that minor magic sword is somehow actually called a "Magic Sword" by name, even though it's not, it's called a Minor Magic Sword. All swords that are magical are all magic swords, so Magic Sword is not a name for a specific thing.

If you wish for a pony, what color is the pony? How is the fucking genie supposed to know what fucking color you want the pony to be if you don't tell him?

Except an item that bestows a curse on you is not beneficial to anyone.

Except, as we've explained, a cursed magic sword is really good, are you just deliberately avoiding reading? It's weird when you directly contradict other peoples statements without giving any reason and pretending they never said the exact opposite.

Except the example you gave is not about a misunderstanding of cultural language use. It was about how a genie might reasonably assume that when you wish for a magic sword you actually want a magic cursed sword. And that assumption is not reasonable. It is actually super-fucking retarded, because there are significantly and obviously less cases in which someone wants a magic cursed sword than a magic uncursed sword. It's not, "X means Y in my culture," it's "you didn't specify, so I thought you'd rather have Y, which is in all ways less useful than X."

You are still being an idiot. Y is not in all ways less useful than X. In many ways it is better or just as good as X. And unless you tell the genie exactly why you want it, he can't just fucking know which things you are going to X for. Now, you could make a probability argument, about how the likelihood of someone wanting X vs Y, but you'd be wrong, because there are tons of swords that are objectively better than a minor magic sword that you would want more often, so if you wish for a magic sword, and the genie gives you a minor magic sword, the genie is actually not giving you what you most probably want.

There is no spoken language in existence in which ambiguity does not exist. For every detail a sentence specifies, there are still infinitely many it does not specify. Pretty much anyone who is proficient with any language at all cannot be afflicted with "stupidly literal" or else it would be impossible to communicate with them.

That would totally matter and actually be true if people who spoke non literal languages were magical creatures who communicate with each other by telepathy. But since they aren't, it's possible the magical creature does in fact speak a totally literal language as a native language, and as such, gets confused when speaking not literal languages in favor of literal wish granting.

Secondly, people who speak non literal languages still misunderstand each other, so when you say "Magic Sword" the Efferti still can't just know exactly what magic sword you want unless you goddam tell it, so you had damn well better specify which one.

[darkmaster]

Oh, I assumed since you were continuing to say cursed like it was a bad thing you were using the usual English interpretation of curse, that being a negative effect applied to you by a supernatural source. But alright, let's go with the tome version, just as well.

Anyway a "magic" sword is always AT LEAST +X, where X=1/3 your level rounded up (according to tome). Because you didn't ask for anything more, a literal genie will give you a +x sword, which is the minimum of magic a sword can have.

[Chamomile]

If a helpful genie was unsure about which of several important distinctions you wanted, wouldn't he just ask? Like, if someone asks for a magic sword, can't he just ask "so, flaming or vorpal or what?"

[Kaelik]

Anyway a "magic" sword is always AT LEAST +X, where X=1/3 your level rounded up (according to tome). Because you didn't ask for anything more, a literal genie will give you a +x sword, which is the minimum of magic a sword can have.

Why would a literal genie give you the least?

If you asked for "More than 2 cows" why would you get three cows instead of 4/5/6/7? Those are all more than 2 cows, and therefore equally as much an option.

[darkmaster]

Yes, that was Avora's point, but Kaelik is positing an argument based on the assumption that the genie will always grant the wish literally as stated, making the ability or willingness of the granter in question to ask for specific details of the grantee irreverent for the purposes of this hypothetical.

Ninjad: Yes, it would, because that's the literal interpretation of "more than two cows." More than 2 is three, and they're cows. True you didn't say one more than two, but assuming more than three takes you away from literal territory. Because while 4 is also more than two 3 fits the wish more closely as literally interpreted.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Ninjad: Yes, it would, because that's the literal interpretation of "more than two cows." More than 2 is three, and they're cows. True you didn't say one more than two, but assuming more than three takes you away from literal territory. Because while 4 is also more than two 3 fits the wish more closely as literally interpreted.

Excellent.

"BLEEP BLOOP BLEEP. GENIEBOT SERVES."

"I wish for more than 2 cows."

"EXPENDING MANA... ONE COW... TWO COW... THREE COW. TERMS HAVE BEEN MET. WISH GRANTED... BEEP."

-------------------

On another note, I'm a little surprised there hasn't been more thinking about how Helpful genies might decide to twist wishes so they are more beneficial to the recipient. Lets say an adventurer frees a noble djinn that had been trapped in a magic circle. The djinn says it will grant one wish, and the adventurer immediately asks for "a fat assload of gold". The djinn conjures up a donkey along with the gold. If there's enough power left for the wish to conjure extra stuff, maybe the donkey has magic horseshoes or something.

[Prak]

If you wish for a pony, what color is the pony? How is the fucking genie supposed to know what fucking color you want the pony to be if you don't tell him?

There's only one correct answer, blue.

[darkmaster]

With a rainbow mane and tail?