Question for a Christian (Hicks)
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Question for a Christian (Hicks)
Just out of curiosity, what is your view on Theodicy/the supposedly all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god and his complete lack of intervention in horrible atrocities?
Last edited by Prak on Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Question for a Christian (Hicks)
Horrible compared to what?Prak wrote:Just out of curiosity, what is your view on Theodicy/the supposedly all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god and his complete lack of intervention in horrible atrocities?
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Imagine a world where the worst thing that ever happened to anyone was paper-cuts. In that world, you would instead be asking why an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god would fail to intervene to prevent paper-cuts. If we lived in Hieronymous-Bosch-World, you would ask why we couldn't spend more time spitted on pikes instead of boiling in acid.
By assuming the continuum of actual human experience is continuum of possible human experience, you are begging the question.
Generally, the theological answers revolve around free will, but that's a cop out: the question is utterly meaningless, because there is no alternate reality to compare to.
By assuming the continuum of actual human experience is continuum of possible human experience, you are begging the question.
Generally, the theological answers revolve around free will, but that's a cop out: the question is utterly meaningless, because there is no alternate reality to compare to.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
In the context of the monotheistic god, there is an alternate reality to compare it to. Heaven.fectin wrote:Generally, the theological answers revolve around free will, but that's a cop out: the question is utterly meaningless, because there is no alternate reality to compare to.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
In that case the question is again meaningless, because everyone can go to heaven (modulo Calvinism), and there's a relatively simple instruction manual for getting there.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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DSMatticus
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That's actually bullshit, and you know it's bullshit, even if you don't yet know you know it's bullshit. If I asked you if you thought a world where people sometimes didn't get dessert was preferable to a world where people sometimes starved to death, you would say yes. If I asked you if it was better to take actions which lead to a world where people do not sometimes starve to death, but instead sometimes do not get dessert (all else being equal), you would say yes. The simple acknowledgement that you believe the world can be changed for the better is an outright admission that you believe people can be (in some sense) culpable for the "continuum of possible human experience."
What you've discovered, and confused yourself with, is that so long as a continuum of human experience exists at all, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being is a fucking dick for whatever happens to be on the worse end of it. For some reason, that's caused you to conclude that we should throw up our hands in the air and not give shits about human suffering in a theological scope, which is fucking crazy, because god is just another moral actor and if we can't evaluate his actions then we can't do moral evaluation at all and we have to stop giving fucks about murdered orphans or whatever.
What you should have realized is that it follows from an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being that there shouldn't be a continuum of human experience, and every single person alive should either not exist or exist in a euphoric haze of perfect, absolute happiness every moment of their lives. Because that is a thing an omnipotent, omniscient being could do, and there is neither absolute nor relative suffering for god to be responsible for and as such is something an omnibenevolent being would do. The fact that we can experience suffering at all, whether absolute or relative, is itself the disproof of at least one of those o-words.
What you've discovered, and confused yourself with, is that so long as a continuum of human experience exists at all, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being is a fucking dick for whatever happens to be on the worse end of it. For some reason, that's caused you to conclude that we should throw up our hands in the air and not give shits about human suffering in a theological scope, which is fucking crazy, because god is just another moral actor and if we can't evaluate his actions then we can't do moral evaluation at all and we have to stop giving fucks about murdered orphans or whatever.
What you should have realized is that it follows from an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being that there shouldn't be a continuum of human experience, and every single person alive should either not exist or exist in a euphoric haze of perfect, absolute happiness every moment of their lives. Because that is a thing an omnipotent, omniscient being could do, and there is neither absolute nor relative suffering for god to be responsible for and as such is something an omnibenevolent being would do. The fact that we can experience suffering at all, whether absolute or relative, is itself the disproof of at least one of those o-words.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Really? You believe that a neverending "euphoric haze of perfect, absolute happiness" is the best outcome?
Because if you really believed that, you'd get high and commit suicide. Any other action puts the lie to your claim.
Because if you really believed that, you'd get high and commit suicide. Any other action puts the lie to your claim.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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PhoneLobster
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Getting high and committing suicide, EXACTLY the same as a nigh impossible hypothetical state of joy that only an omnipotent being could create.
IF YOU ARE INCREDIBLY STUPID.
IF YOU ARE INCREDIBLY STUPID.
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"Suicidal crack addicts go through life in a euphoric haze of perfect, absolute happiness," thought no one ever.fectin wrote:Really? You believe that a neverending "euphoric haze of perfect, absolute happiness" is the best outcome?
Because if you really believed that, you'd get high and commit suicide. Any other action puts the lie to your claim.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Can you please explain the trail you went on to arrive at this conclusion based off of what he said?fectin wrote:Really? You believe that a neverending "euphoric haze of perfect, absolute happiness" is the best outcome?
Because if you really believed that, you'd get high and commit suicide. Any other action puts the lie to your claim.
Well, I saw this thread at the tail end of my lunch break, and after work returned to the hotel and wrote a decent 2/3s explanation of my precondition for intelligibility, but would you believe that a fire alarm went off and we had to evacuate until just now. I write at my computer tower, and had to unplug it and lost the post. I'll rewrite it in a bit, but I don't want you to thing that I'm avoiding you asking about my faith. I guess I'll start again, be back in a bit.
-Kid Radd
shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.
Stuff I've MadeLokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed
Fair enough.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
I've been avoiding this conversation here for some years. So I've got some ground rules on what I'm gonna do:Prak wrote:Just out of curiosity, what is your view on Theodicy/the supposedly all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god and his complete lack of intervention in horrible atrocities?
- I'm not here to judge you, or anybody else. What anybody does is between them and God, and I play no part in that relationship.
- I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else. It is a biblical truth that I cannot ever personally make that happen. The holy spirit can, but he's omnipotent and not me.
- To all those other Christians reading this, I do not want to stumble anyone; God forbid I turn anyone away from God. But what I have to say makes Christians angry . It makes my wife angry. If you do not believe what I do in your walk of christian faith, I AM NOT DENOUNCING YOU. What you believe is literally between you and God.
The short version is that the triune creator and omnipotent master of all time and space, as revealed by his word, which is truth made manifest, is not all-loving.
The long version is that, to be honest, I would say that your question doesn't go far enough. Atrocities? Holocausts? Pogroms? Famine? Plague? Death? What about inconvenience? I do not seek to trivialize the horrors suffered in all of history, but truly: if I have the sovereign master of all space and time in my corner, why do I want for anything? Not the absence of pain, but the absence of pleasure! All desires fulfilled.
The frightening truth is that God is not standing in my corner, we are standing in His. This is the foundation of (admittedly) my faith: That God does not require anything to be satisfied except Himself; He is self-glorifying, and all of His creation was made for the purpose of his glorification. All of it. Every possible subdivision of all time and space is unified in this singular purpose. Even the stuff that hates God, that "rebels" against His will, does so by His will. God loves some, and God hates others, and God tests what he loves even when he knows the answer, and God said that this all leads to his sole glory. God doesn't need us, and it is a testament of his love that some of us, through no merit of our own and by his sole will, are spared of anything.
The classical answer to this is the entire book of Job, who's entire life was completely purposed to show that factually good people and their entire families and communities suffer because God teaches lessons. His lesson is that good people suffer, and he suffered to teach that lesson to everyone who reads the book of Job. My wife HATES the book of Job. She hates the book so much because all of Jobs children were crushed to death, the entire purpose of their lives was to die so that Job could suffer. Job WAS righteous, even God said so, and all his children died, his vast wealth was removed, and is flesh was wracked by pustulent boils, and his wife and his friends turned on him. And he was still righteous. At the end of it all, Job asked God, "Why me?" and God took time out of his day to answer, In a more modern context, that we are literally the slime on a slimy dustball adrift in the cosmos with no concept of what we are, He is the sovereign creator and master of all space and time. God took time out of his day to say that, rebuked the friends that turned on Job, and then Job, who isn't the sovereign master and creator of all time and space, praised God and went on with his life. Most like to think that the book of Job ends with Job's health and wealth restored, and my wife is furious that his children were only be replaced (dude lost a LOT of kids), but the actual ending is that Job and his new family are just as dead now as his first brood of children. Every one of them is dead and gone, and the only reason you know about them was their whole purpose for existing, to suffer to teach us the lesson that righteous people suffer.
Now I want to talk about the book of Romans. Romans is a hell of a book, but here is what I specifically will relate to my point:
ROMANS, CHAPTER NINE
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
This post is in a pretty dark place, but you specifically asked for what I thought was true, not what was nice, or some trick, but honest, no-BS truth. But there is a bit more to this. The only reason people die, is that they have nothing more to accomplish in God's plan for his glory; quite literally they have fulfilled all purpose in their life, and truly Romans chapter 8 is filled with the promise that their purpose fulfilled works not only God's glory, but to his elect's (remember we don't save ourselves, he chooses to save us) ultimate good.
ROMANS, CHAPTER 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And then there are the actual words of Christ, from, John 16: 33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
TLDR, the Short-Short version: People suffer for God's glory, because the ultimate glorification of God is the purpose of creation.
-Kid Radd
shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.
Stuff I've MadeLokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed
Yeah, no, I accept that. That's basically the only way to justify the all-knowing, all-powerful god that christians believe in, ie, say "hey, god's a prick, what're you gonna do about it? Not a whole fucking lot since you are basically the fuzz on God's saggy left nut."
I just see christians actually say that so seldom that... so seldom that I can't say "never" only because you just did.
I certainly don't get why people continue to worship when they've come to that conclusion, but I can at least respect people who are willing to look at the "omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent" meme of their own religion and say "yeah.... one of those isn't happening here."
Like, my parents are super devout catholics. And while our ac, heater, oven, microwave, cars and tv basically take turns fucking off and needing repair, while other incidentals come up, like bone cancer in the dog's toe, they remain super devout and believe in the "3 Os" and that god is simply testing them. Meanwhile I'm of the opinion that if there's some greater power that wants my belief and praise, the least he could do is drop a few million dollars on our door step so we can stop treading water and get the fuck to shore.
I just see christians actually say that so seldom that... so seldom that I can't say "never" only because you just did.
I certainly don't get why people continue to worship when they've come to that conclusion, but I can at least respect people who are willing to look at the "omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent" meme of their own religion and say "yeah.... one of those isn't happening here."
Like, my parents are super devout catholics. And while our ac, heater, oven, microwave, cars and tv basically take turns fucking off and needing repair, while other incidentals come up, like bone cancer in the dog's toe, they remain super devout and believe in the "3 Os" and that god is simply testing them. Meanwhile I'm of the opinion that if there's some greater power that wants my belief and praise, the least he could do is drop a few million dollars on our door step so we can stop treading water and get the fuck to shore.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Yeah, that's really my only issue with Hicks' philosophy. I've come to the conclusion that if god exists--a shaky, unfounded proposition at best--he's an abusive asshole and not worthy of worship even if he does exist. I mean, basically, if I die and find that the christians were right, I'm going to punch him in the fucking face--or be sent to Hell trying.
I'd certainly like to believe in a kindly, benevolent, loving god, something like a divine version of a little old lady in an apartment complex who bakes everyone cookies and doesn't judge anyone, just wishing the junkies get better and doing what she can to help people, but if such a figure exists, they cannot also be omniscient or omnipotent. Either Granny God doesn't know about the raped/murdered/tortured/starving kids, or she can't do anything about it.
I'd certainly like to believe in a kindly, benevolent, loving god, something like a divine version of a little old lady in an apartment complex who bakes everyone cookies and doesn't judge anyone, just wishing the junkies get better and doing what she can to help people, but if such a figure exists, they cannot also be omniscient or omnipotent. Either Granny God doesn't know about the raped/murdered/tortured/starving kids, or she can't do anything about it.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Well I can understand it because they clearly still believe in a heaven and a hell and that God sends people he doesn't like to hell. And sure it's cool to say "yeah endless eternal torture I could so handle that" when you're sitting in relative comfort having a theology discussions on a forum. I believe Hicks is simply of the opinion that they do not want to handle that in their afterlife and would prefer to get the good ending even if God's an asshole.
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DSMatticus
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I don't actually think Hicks believes in free will. You're not looking at someone who is convinced that they have to love a cruel, omnipotent manchild for fear of eternal retribution. You're looking at someone who is convinced that they were predestined to be convinced that they had to love a cruel, omnipotent manchild for fear of eternal retribution. It's bizarre and meta and ultimately boils down to "I'm one of the chosen; shit happens and my Sunday mornings are really boring, but I'm going to heaven, so there's that." There are Christian denominations who believe the world works that way; it's usually not a part of their recruitment pitch, because to most it's abhorrent and insane, but it really is Church doctrine for hundreds of millions people.shinimasu wrote:Well I can understand it because they clearly still believe in a heaven and a hell and that God sends people he doesn't like to hell. And sure it's cool to say "yeah endless eternal torture I could so handle that" when you're sitting in relative comfort having a theology discussions on a forum. I believe Hicks is simply of the opinion that they do not want to handle that in their afterlife and would prefer to get the good ending even if God's an asshole.
Christianity is really fucking grimderp.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ah yes I'm familiar with that particular strain of theology. I'd forgotten about it largely because like you said they don't advertise a whole lot. It does make sense but it's also hardly mainline christian theology (if you can call anything about modern Christianity mainline these days).
I tend to subscribe to the God may not be omnipotent school of thought personally but I realize my opinion is kind of fringe and therefore don't usually engage in debates about it online.
Edit: Hicks believing that makes sense given his response, not that this branch of theology makes sense. At least not to me.
I tend to subscribe to the God may not be omnipotent school of thought personally but I realize my opinion is kind of fringe and therefore don't usually engage in debates about it online.
Edit: Hicks believing that makes sense given his response, not that this branch of theology makes sense. At least not to me.
Last edited by shinimasu on Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
I in fact do not personally believe in free will, but it goes a little deeper than that. See, Christ said in Mathew 7:22-23, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
That means, with all I said above, that if my heart is hardened and I am NOT one of God's elect, I am separated from his presence for the remainder of eternity (which is what "sent to hell" means) as opposed to eternally abiding in the presence of God (which is the definition of heaven). I don't get to choose, that's the point. And my faith isn't to save me from hell or secure my place in heaven, I do it out of grateful thanks. And that would seem insane because the bible freaking says it sounds insane to unbelievers.
Honestly? Sometimes you guys sound just as insane to me. I go through life without fear or worry; I still plan and strive, I'm commanded to do so and do so gratefully, but I don't believe I succeed or fail through my efforts. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away and all that. I honestly cannot fathom how alone some of you feel, it's all on you and you're still not in control; there is always a bigger fish, or natural disaster, or a stellar event, or random chance that absolutely dictates your life. I don't get how you do it, and I cannot get it. I do get that you don't get me. That's OK, because none of you are here to present your worldview, nor would I ask you to. I'm not going to change your worldview by challenging it on the internet, or in real life; it's not my place.
Please know that I skipped a bunch of stuff to get to the point of Prak's question. Pretty much all of the absolute sovereignty of God premise isn't supported in the text with scripture references, nor is the nature of the manifest truth that is God's spoken word. I'm just thankful that one of the most theologically charged questions that could be posed didn't start an ultimately pointless ideological flamewar. Yet. I'll do my part to keep it that way.
That means, with all I said above, that if my heart is hardened and I am NOT one of God's elect, I am separated from his presence for the remainder of eternity (which is what "sent to hell" means) as opposed to eternally abiding in the presence of God (which is the definition of heaven). I don't get to choose, that's the point. And my faith isn't to save me from hell or secure my place in heaven, I do it out of grateful thanks. And that would seem insane because the bible freaking says it sounds insane to unbelievers.
Honestly? Sometimes you guys sound just as insane to me. I go through life without fear or worry; I still plan and strive, I'm commanded to do so and do so gratefully, but I don't believe I succeed or fail through my efforts. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away and all that. I honestly cannot fathom how alone some of you feel, it's all on you and you're still not in control; there is always a bigger fish, or natural disaster, or a stellar event, or random chance that absolutely dictates your life. I don't get how you do it, and I cannot get it. I do get that you don't get me. That's OK, because none of you are here to present your worldview, nor would I ask you to. I'm not going to change your worldview by challenging it on the internet, or in real life; it's not my place.
Please know that I skipped a bunch of stuff to get to the point of Prak's question. Pretty much all of the absolute sovereignty of God premise isn't supported in the text with scripture references, nor is the nature of the manifest truth that is God's spoken word. I'm just thankful that one of the most theologically charged questions that could be posed didn't start an ultimately pointless ideological flamewar. Yet. I'll do my part to keep it that way.
-Kid Radd
shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.
Stuff I've MadeLokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed